Gneisenau

[adrian6045]

*** NOTE, i place this thread in the wrong place, in the Bismarck thread somebody kindly pointed this out so i have copied it here, below is my post and following it is a copy of the 1 response so far.

*** My post from Bismarck thread

Im well aware of the many alternate Bismarck scenario's, Tirpitz sails though not having completed trials, various combinations with the Battlecruisers etc etc.

I wondered if the following had been looked at.

In March 1941 the Twins put into Brest, Scharnhorst needed to be dry docked due to engine troubles, subsequently while in Brest Gneisenau was damaged by air attack, leaving her unfit to support the breakout by Bismarck.

However - although Scharnhorst needed dry dock facilities Gneisenau did not, could the pair not have been split up, Gneisenau going to St Nazaire or La Rochelle or even Bordeaux ?.
Might this have altered events such that Gneisenau was not damaged by air attack.

I wonder what effect Gneisenau's presence alone in the Atlantic could have had on Royal Navy / Tovey's dispositions.

Is it feasable that she joins Bismarck in the Denmarck strait, leading to Hood PoW v Bismarck and Gneisenau scenario.

Alternatively - given that Gneisenau is unable to join Bismarck in the DMS's and Hood sinks with Bismarck incurring damage as she did, how can Gneisenau be used to assist Bismarck in getting to Brest. Maybe she joins Bismarck after the battle in the DMS's and her AA guns are enough to alter the events of the torpedoe attack that hits Bismarck's rudder.
Regards.

[adrian6045]

*** Note, this is the respnse copied from the Bismarck thread



Re: Gneisenau

by paulcadogan » Tue May 29, 2012 2:55 am

Hi Adrian,

If Gneisenau had been serviceable at the time of Rheinubung it is doubtful that she would have sailed all the way to meet Bismarck in the DS - far too risky with the British on the alert - and they would have been on the alert for any sortie by either or both of the twins.

Before Rheinubung the RN mounted regular patrols in the Bay of Biscay area - King George V, Hood, Force H (Renown, Ark Royal et al) all spent time patrolling the area as long as the British believed the Twins were able to put to sea, Once they had been effectively bombed the patrols were relaxed.

A sortie by Gneisenau, simultaneous with Bismarck & Prinz Eugen leaving Norway would have put serious strain on the RN. With convoys paasing through the area - especially the troopship convoy WS8B, Force H would have sortied after her, Repulse and Victorious might not have been detached from WS8B to the Home Fleet. If Tovey still sent Hood & PoW ahead, he would then have followed with KGV with the 4 light cruisers with no Repulse or carrier support. I doubt this would have made any real difference since Repulse ultimately saw no action and Victorious' torpedo attack, while having some effect on morale on both sides, really did not significantly affect Bismarck's seakeaping ability.

I suspect the outcome would have been the same overall, since Lutjens would probably have arranged for Gneisenau to meet the Prinz to conduct the Atlantic raid while Bismarck headed for France. The result - Bismarck is still crippled by Ark Royal and destroyed by Rodney & KGV, Gneisenau and Prinz Eugen (the latter with her engine/propeller issues) head back to Brest.

That's my take, but for sure, there could be other scenarios. (BTW, his thread should really have started in the "Hypothetical Naval Scenarios" forum! )

Paul

[adrian6045]

Thanx for the reply, i agree with much of your thinking.

Highly unlikely/impossible that Gneisenau will go to the DMS.

However the micro history of Force H is altered, given that the hit on Bismarck's rudder is such a fluke, i believe it's realistic to say it is not repeated.

I think it's realistic to propose Bismarck makes it to Brest. What happens next.

The RAF throws everything at the Bismarck, keeping any of the ships there becomes untenable, Bismarck is repeatedly damaged.
Given the vigour with which air crews attacked Gneisenau in Brest i think it's bound to be that Bismarck is damaged, she may know recieve so much attention from air strikes, pressed home so forcefully, that she never gets out of Brest.
Possibly the Battlecruisers are forced to abandon Brest as a base and return to Germany before 1942 ?.

[paul.mercer]

Thanx for the reply, i agree with much of your thinking.

Highly unlikely/impossible that Gneisenau will go to the DMS.

However the micro history of Force H is altered, given that the hit on Bismarck's rudder is such a fluke, i believe it's realistic to say it is not repeated.

I think it's realistic to propose Bismarck makes it to Brest. What happens next.

The RAF throws everything at the Bismarck, keeping any of the ships there becomes untenable, Bismarck is repeatedly damaged.
Given the vigour with which air crews attacked Gneisenau in Brest i think it's bound to be that Bismarck is damaged, she may know recieve so much attention from air strikes, pressed home so forcefully, that she never gets out of Brest.
Possibly the Battlecruisers are forced to abandon Brest as a base and return to Germany before 1942 ?.

One could say that any ONE hit that cripples (or sinks in the case of Hood) a ship is a fluke, after all a ship or aircraft is aiming at it's target as a whole, not in a particular spot.

[paulcadogan]

However the micro history of Force H is altered, given that the hit on Bismarck's rudder is such a fluke, i believe it's realistic to say it is not repeated.

Not necessarily - chances are they'd have been in the same area at the same time (having not caught Gneisenau). Plus, the hits scored by Ark Royal's Swordfish were no flukes - remember they scored twice, though the steering compartment hit was "lucky". Having just read John Moffat's first-hand account of the attack (in his book "I Sank The Bismarck"***) the attack was carried out quite systematically with great skill and determination. The only reason another attack wasn't launched against the crippled Bismarck before Tovey's arrival was the terrible weather.

***Moffat said in an interview that he did not coin the title and says he was not too happy with it, but I guess the publisher's gotta sell books! Though the title suggests it and history generally has recorded that he did - he makes no claim in the text to scoring the crippling hit. He never saw the torpedo strike home as he was too busy getting the hell out of the way of Bismarck's AA....

But you are correct in that had Bismarck reached St. Nazaire she would have been bombed relentlessly.

[RF]

However - although Scharnhorst needed dry dock facilities Gneisenau did not, could the pair not have been split up, Gneisenau going to St Nazaire or La Rochelle or even Bordeaux ?.

It would still have come under sustained air attack. And constant moving from port to port opens an avenue for submarine attack - remember what happened to the Tirranna.

[RF]

Is it feasable that she joins Bismarck in the Denmarck strait, leading to Hood PoW v Bismarck and Gneisenau scenario.

As already suggested, this would have been logistically impossible - and also would require a crystal ball to achieve such split second timing.