Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

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Ultimate Shield
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Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Ultimate Shield » Mon Nov 14, 2011 3:36 am

Might anyone have an image of the shell hit that supposedly hit between Anton and Bruno, putting them out of action and setting the for deck on fire?

All the books and videos I own don't show any imaging of this area on the wreck, and all the artist renderings I've seen of the wreck show no shell hit there. I find it very surprising that none of these show this critical hit as it was very decisive in the final battle

Dana

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Ultimate Shield » Mon Nov 14, 2011 5:47 am

Here's a scan from one of the books I have to illustrate where the general area of the hit should be. :wink:
bismarck hits.JPG
bismarck hits.JPG (49.96 KiB) Viewed 4948 times

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby lwd » Tue Nov 15, 2011 4:32 pm

Hit 7 seems to be in the area you circled.
I would think hits 11, 17, and 20 would also be possible candidates though.

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby RF » Wed Nov 16, 2011 11:20 am

Unfortunately we don't have an index of these numbers or complete timings. Which book is the scan taken from?

My understanding of the hit referred to is based on the eye-witness account of Ludovic Kennedy, who saw a hit ''that blew off the back of B turret and sent a sheet of flame up the control tower.''
He later observed the guns of Anton turret at minimum depression, and suggested that was so due to power failure.

The problem here I think is that there were no German survivors from the fore part of the ship who would be able to answer this. Kennedy implies that the hit on B turret was decisive in that the blast of flame he noted would have taken out all the senior officers and gunnery control, what the Americans today would call ''degrading the command function.''

The fact that Anton turret fired after this hit appears to confirm Kennedys' observation that the hit was on or behind Bruno turret and that Anton itself wasn't directly affected. Anton would be affected by the loss of central gunnery control - did its later fire be under local control? And then suffer loss of power as the hits and collateral damage accumulated?
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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby lwd » Wed Nov 16, 2011 3:26 pm

In another thread it was mentioned that if a hit threatened the magazine of a turret it may have been German doctrine to flood not only the magazine of that turret but the adjacent one as well. Scharnhorst did so for insance. If this was what happend either subsequent electrical problems or as you say "degraded" command function may have prevented clearing the magazine and reestablishing the functioning of Anton. I have seen at least some speculation that the last rounds fired from Anton may have been rounds simply "cooking" off.

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby paulcadogan » Thu Nov 24, 2011 2:11 am

RF wrote:My understanding of the hit referred to is based on the eye-witness account of Ludovic Kennedy, who saw a hit ''that blew off the back of B turret and sent a sheet of flame up the control tower.'' He later observed the guns of Anton turret at minimum depression, and suggested that was so due to power failure.


No, that's not the same hit. The hit that blew the back off Bruno took place at 9:40 am - after Bismarck was silenced - and came from Rodney which by that time was meandering back and forth ahead of Bismarck at point blank range - making penetration of the turret armour quite possible.

The "spectacular" first hit on the forward section was observed by the Rodney's captain at 9:02. It was Norfolk that observed the guns of Anton at maximum depression and Bruno's at high elevation. At least one of the turrets was apparently brought back into action at about 9:27 but quickly fell silent again.
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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Ultimate Shield » Thu Nov 24, 2011 4:29 am

Book photo is from is
tmpphpcz2tvz.jpg
tmpphpcz2tvz.jpg (15.08 KiB) Viewed 4859 times


But the hit between A&B is also mentioned in Nat Geo's Nazi Supership

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Djoser » Sat Aug 25, 2012 5:39 am

Almost certainly had to be 'Hit 7', unless maybe 'Hit 11' was a ricochet that jammed or otherwise interfered with training somehow on Bruno. Hits 17 and 20 are too far away from the other turrets to take them both out at once, excepting only in the case of magazine fires forcing them to flood both magazines. If Rodney's captain did indeed observe a 'spectacular hit', and he meant by this that it is the one that took out both turrets, it would have to be 7 or 11. He couldn't possibly 'observe' the fact that they had to flood the magazines.

But I have also read about the hit on the foretop fire control (at about the same time) being described as a 'spectacular hit'. Is it possible there is some confusion as to which hit this phrase refers to? Or were there two observers, who independently reported seeing these 'spectacular hits'??

In any case, Bismarck certainly reaped his own share of bad luck, following his supposedly 'lucky' hit that blew up Hood. First the rudder, then the two forward turrets at once early in the battle, then the fire control, also early on (though this might not have been so bad, if the Baron's fire control wasn't also taken out just after he had obtained a straddle on Rodney).

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Dave Saxton » Sat Aug 25, 2012 2:44 pm

Ultimate Shield wrote:......and all the artist renderings I've seen of the wreck show no shell hit there. I find it very surprising that none of these show this critical hit as it was very decisive in the final battle

Dana


As far as I know "hit 7" doesn't actually exist on the wreck. This leads me to beleive that the hit or hits at 0902 was on one or both of the forward turrets, now buried up side down in the mud.

He couldn't possibly 'observe' the fact that they had to flood the magazines.

But I have also read about the hit on the foretop fire control (at about the same time) being described as a 'spectacular hit'. Is it possible there is some confusion as to which hit this phrase refers to? Or were there two observers, who independently reported seeing these 'spectacular hits'??



It's possible that the hit or hits didn't directly take out both turrets at the same time. Probable flooding of the forward magazine group (as with Scharnhorst) would have meant the other turret was off line for about a 1/2 hour. Also Anton had had its optics removed and so was dependant on central fire control. With the loss of the forward firecontrol positions at about the same time, it would have in effect taken Anton out the battle. Of course local fire control is almost use less in any case.

One thing often over looked or dismissed is that the Rodney records only three splashes observed from the 5 shot salvo, indicating a double hit.
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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby Djoser » Wed Aug 29, 2012 5:33 am

Ahhh--I didn't know that, Dave (about the shell splashes). Thanks for posting about it.

I wonder if one 16" shell hit B turret, and the other took out the foretop fire control at the same time? That would certainly explain the report of the 'spectacular hit' possibly applying to both of them, if they happened at the same instant.

That would also be a phenomenally lucky two hits at once for Rodney--but maybe even more believable than the two hits taking out a turret each at the same time. I would think that at that distance there would be some dispersal of hits.

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby sineatimorar » Fri Oct 18, 2013 11:11 pm

A couple of observations that may clarify the question.
1./While there were no survivors from that part of the ship, the escape path for several survivors was the forward command and bridge areas. Their accounts shed some light on conditions forward.
2./ The image displays no hits on B turret, only A turret so there is a chance that the observation was in error. Interesting to look at A turret video. Show the damage to the rear of that turret. Shows that the lower internal turret mechanisms are destroyed and burnt ( indicated by the black colouring and lack of paint) . There is also a telling image of the lower egde of the forward face of the turret which shows what might be distortion from been hit.
3./ There is damage to the deck near by the commings ( I think that is what they are called ) that shows a deck collapse at least similar to the deck collapse near the one of the cranes, only smaller in size.
4./ Any fire was internal to the turrets as very little evidence is shown of it's existence outside of the turrets.

Further images of the other turrets would be of great help as would a indication of where they are in relationship to the main wreck. I keep looking for them.

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby sineatimorar » Sat Oct 19, 2013 2:02 pm

Further to art work the Baron's description of hit from Rodney indicates A turret was hit not B turret. Thought he had similar art work in his book, but I was incorrect in that assumption. Only description that is reflected in line drawing above

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby sineatimorar » Sun Nov 10, 2013 11:17 pm

I just read a more in-depth analysis of surivor and direct wreck analysis. It is believed that the first hit may have been the penetrating hit thru Bruno's barpet, this definitely took out the turret and would have caused the flooding of the magazines. Somewhere along the line Anton's hydraulics failed. It is thought that Bruno was already cantered fwd by the internal failure of it structure when the hit credited with removing the rear portion of armour occured. If there had been a internal explosion of ammo already inside Bruno, as is very likely, then is it plausible to suggest that the structure of the turret itself was already weakened by containing the internal explosion? If the splinters from the external hit did not kill the all the bridge personnel then the following hits on the forward command post would have mopped up any survivors.

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Re: Hit that knocked out A&B turrets

Postby sineatimorar » Mon Nov 11, 2013 1:56 pm

Interestly the damage to Anton's lower sections was due to the slide of the wreck, it ran over the top of Anton.


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