Withdrawing from Combat

General naval discussions that don't fit within any specific time period or cover several issues.
paul.mercer
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by paul.mercer » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:36 pm

dunmunro wrote:Churchill's considered opinion:
The command now passed to Rear-Admiral Wake-Walker
on his bridge in the cruiser Norfolk. It was for him to decide
whether to renew the fight at once or hold on to the enemy till
the Commander-in-Chief should arrive with the King George
V and the aircraft-carrier Victorious. A dominant factor was
the state of the Prince of Wales. This ship had only recently
been commissioned, and scarcely a week had passed since
Captain Leach had been able to report her "fit for battle."
She had been severely mauled, and two of her ten fourteen
ch guns were unserviceable. It was highly doubtful whether
in this condition she was a match for the Bismarck. Admiral
Wake-Walker, therefore, decided not to renew the action, but
to hold the enemy under observation. In this he
was indisputably right. (p.268)
Gentlemen,
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I thought that it was Churchill that initially asked Admiral Dudley Pound to consider a Court Martial for Captain Leach

dunmunro
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by dunmunro » Fri Aug 01, 2014 3:50 pm

paul.mercer wrote:
dunmunro wrote:Churchill's considered opinion:
The command now passed to Rear-Admiral Wake-Walker
on his bridge in the cruiser Norfolk. It was for him to decide
whether to renew the fight at once or hold on to the enemy till
the Commander-in-Chief should arrive with the King George
V and the aircraft-carrier Victorious. A dominant factor was
the state of the Prince of Wales. This ship had only recently
been commissioned, and scarcely a week had passed since
Captain Leach had been able to report her "fit for battle."
She had been severely mauled, and two of her ten fourteen
ch guns were unserviceable. It was highly doubtful whether
in this condition she was a match for the Bismarck. Admiral
Wake-Walker, therefore, decided not to renew the action, but
to hold the enemy under observation. In this he
was indisputably right. (p.268)
Gentlemen,
Forgive me if I am mistaken, but I thought that it was Churchill that initially asked Admiral Dudley Pound to consider a Court Martial for Captain Leach
The only source for that is Tovey via Kennedy, and there is some evidence to suggest that Tovey exaggerated Admiralty queries into Admiralty requests for a court martial. Churchill's biography by Gilbert doesn't support claims that he tried to have Leach court martialled.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:06 pm

Everybody ,(including the son of Capt Leach who provided this photo to Tarrant) seems to believe the Court Martial was the first idea of Churchill..... :think:
Tarrant_page_61_Leach_photo_caption.jpg
Tarrant_page_61_Leach_photo_caption.jpg (100.04 KiB) Viewed 2218 times
Antonio Bonomi wrote to Herr Nilsson: "you can enjoy the reading Marc ... :wink: ... I avoid to put here the IWM link of McMullen, ... were you can find in direct words the same concept.
Please refer to the thread 5,25"
Churchill_01.jpg
Churchill_01.jpg (119.5 KiB) Viewed 2219 times
Court_Martial.jpg
Court_Martial.jpg (31.33 KiB) Viewed 2219 times
http://www.naval-review.com/issues/1980s/1980-3.pdf

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... 06text.txt

http://cdn.worldheritage.org/articles/F ... ake-Walker

http://webatomics.com/jason/Images/dissertation.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tovey ... aron_Tovey


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Wake-Walker


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Leach ... vy_officer)

http://books.google.it/books?id=9-g7AwA ... ch&f=false


http://books.google.it/books?id=LIaDXoU ... ch&f=false

"


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

dunmunro
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by dunmunro » Fri Aug 01, 2014 4:16 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Everybody ,(including the son of Capt Leach who provided this photo to Tarrant) seems to believe the Court Martial was the first idea of Churchill..... :think:
Tarrant_page_61_Leach_photo_caption.jpg
Antonio Bonomi wrote to Herr Nilsson: "you can enjoy the reading Marc ... :wink: ... I avoid to put here the IWM link of McMullen, ... were you can find in direct words the same concept.
Please refer to the thread 5,25"
Churchill_01.jpg
Court_Martial.jpg
http://www.naval-review.com/issues/1980s/1980-3.pdf

http://familytreemaker.genealogy.com/us ... 06text.txt

http://cdn.worldheritage.org/articles/F ... ake-Walker

http://webatomics.com/jason/Images/dissertation.pdf


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Tovey ... aron_Tovey


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Wake-Walker


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Leach ... vy_officer)

http://books.google.it/books?id=9-g7AwA ... ch&f=false


http://books.google.it/books?id=LIaDXoU ... ch&f=false

"


Bye, Alberto
Show us a source other than Tovey. All the above use Tovey. Show us Admiralty documents or cabinet papers that confirm a request for a court martial. Endlessly repeated Tovey sourced articles or books is pointless.

ANTONIO DOESN'T CONSIDER TOVEY AS TRUSTWORTHY AND DISPUTES TOVEY'S ACCOUNT OF THE BATTLE BUT THEN FEELS THAT HE IS 100% RELIABLE ABOUT THIS UNSUPPORTED ALLEGATION - THIS IS ALMOST FUNNY! :lol:

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RF
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by RF » Fri Aug 01, 2014 6:22 pm

Dave, you are absolutely right in saying that where a view is speculative it should be clearly identified as so..
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Aug 01, 2014 7:18 pm

Hello everybody,

Sorry, NO speculative view by anybody.

" The plot " and 06.13 are a real shame and the reasons, when and by whom those statements have been " invented ", are clear now.

I have NOT seen yet anyone of you guys telling me that those 2 above statements are correct.

You are just trying to " walk around " something that is there and will always nail down to their responsibilities those persons.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Byron Angel
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Byron Angel » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:42 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

Sorry, NO speculative view by anybody.

" The plot " and 06.13 are a real shame and the reasons, when and by whom those statements have been " invented ", are clear now.

I have NOT seen yet anyone of you guys telling me that those 2 above statements are correct.

You are just trying to " walk around " something that is there and will always nail down to their responsibilities those persons.

Bye Antonio :D

..... I honestly think you are missing the point people are seeking to make here, Antonio. To quote the great Groucho Marx in his reference to a certain popular Freudian inference ... "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar".

B

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Aug 02, 2014 6:58 am

Hello everybody,

@ Byron Angel,

I agree with you : ... " Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ".

Sometimes a " cover up " is just a " cover up ".

@ Dunmunro,

Duncan, what is funny here is the fact that because of a side taken many persons refuse to see and accept what is evident.

Yes, Admiral Tovey is fully involved on all this, and same is valid for Adm Pound, Adm Tom Phillips and Churchill, like it or not those were the persons that decided what was going to be done one way or the other.

What Wake-Walker, Leach and Ellis had done was evident to them on real time.

While in action, an engaged RN battleship retreat and a missing engagement by a Flag officer.

If Bismarck was NOT going to be sunk than those officers, including Adm Tovey, were going to have a real hard time.

But Bismarck went to the bottom and the decision was at that point between a negative or a positive war propaganda.

We know how it went. As simple as that.

... sometimes a cigar is just a cigar ... sometimes the things just don't go by the books as expected, ... especially in war when there is your own life to risk and loose.

At the military school everybody is committed and courageous, ... in peace time many like the honor to wear an high rank uniform ... but it is in war while in front of the enemy at the supreme moment that the real value shows up.

That is why they call it the field of honor.

There was NO honor on that battle for the above mentioned officers, ... they did NOT deserve the decoration they received.

It has been a real shame that in order to " cover up " what happened ... they modified some data in order to include them into the decoration list and NOT to call a board of inquiry on their conduct.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

Byron Angel
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Byron Angel » Sat Aug 02, 2014 12:35 pm

..... With all due respect, my impression is that you have allowed the (cover up conspiracy) theory to take on a degree of substance that is just not supported by the evidence. It is POSSIBLE that you are right, but inference, theory and speculation are not evidence. Should you go forward to publish your work, which I hope you will do, I certainly think it would be perfectly reasonable to QUESTION or EXAMINE the behavior and decisions of the British commanders on the scene, but to attempt to argue as FACT a case of dereliction of duty, cowardice in the face of the enemy and subsequent high level cover-up (which is what your case implies, like it or not) would be a grave disservice to your otherwise fine and valuable work in dissecting the physical aspects of the battle.

BTW - I would recommend (if you have not already done so) that you examine for reference the evolution of tactics of British frigates versus the heavy Constitution class USA frigates during the War of 1812. There is an operational similarity to the case of Bismarck.

B

Steve Crandell
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Steve Crandell » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:19 pm

If you look at the Battle of Trafalgar you will see a number of British captains who were hesitant to follow Nelson strait into the center of the Allied line of battle, and hung back. They were not court martialed. There are lots of instances where people exercised prudence as the "better part of valor" and were not censured for it. It isn't all that unusual.

Steve Crandell
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Steve Crandell » Sat Aug 02, 2014 2:28 pm

Scheer reversed course and sailed away with his entire battle fleet at Jutland instead of bravely charging into the center of Jellico's fleet. Clearly cowardice by some people's definition here. Why wasn't he court martialed? One must never retreat, even in the face of superior force.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:30 pm

Hello everybody,

I like you examples, ... and I will study more about them, ... and I can add more on other periods and war scenario's at sea and on the ground.

Can you please tell me if somebody intentionally modified the maps and reports of those engagements you are comparing ?

Can you tell me if the Officers you are using as comparison got rewarded for their actions with medals by the King ?

I can be wrong, ... but on this I think Denmark Strait is a unique occurrence.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by dunmunro » Sat Aug 02, 2014 4:52 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

I like you examples, ... and I will study more about them, ... and I can add more on other periods and war scenario's at sea and on the ground.

Can you please tell me if somebody intentionally modified the maps and reports of those engagements you are comparing ?

Can you tell me if the Officers you are using as comparison got rewarded for their actions with medals by the King ?

I can be wrong, ... but on this I think Denmark Strait is a unique occurrence.

Bye Antonio :D
Trying to reconcile the plot of widely separated ships is not the same as altering an original plot.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:09 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "Can you tell me if the Officers you are using as comparison got rewarded for their actions with medals by the King ?"
:clap:
This is the real point: Leach behaviour could be evaluated as a "below average" one and still not "prosecuted" (even if under normal circumstance a board of inquiry was more than due, as it happed for much less to Somerville at Spartivento).

The fact they were decorated instead, demonstrates the "cover up" of the facts for well due propaganda war reasons, allowing the full celebration of the victory over BS .

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

dunmunro
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Re: Withdrawing from Combat

Post by dunmunro » Sat Aug 02, 2014 5:33 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:

Can you tell me if the Officers you are using as comparison got rewarded for their actions with medals by the King ?
Both Scheer and Hipper were decorated and promoted after Jutland. Needless the say, the naming of KM ships after them reflects the fact that they remained in favour.

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