May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Nov 04, 2016 11:53 am

Cag wrote: "......if a ship has been stationed at a point then if a turn is ordered the ship executing that turn and the ship following must modify their speeds to maintain their relative stations. Therefore if PoW was to starboard of Hood when travelling on the bearing 000° then she would be to starboard after the turn to 200° or not?"
Hi Mr.Cag,
not being a specialist at all of RN turning instructions, I think that this change of position would be true if the turn was ordered by "White Pendant" (in Italian: "per contromarcia" or by "counter-march") that would mean that the ship stationed behind follows the leading ship (in her wake if stationed exactly behind) in order to preserve relative bearing and distance.

Capt.Leach always mentions "Blue Pendant" turns (in Italian "a un tempo" or "at one time"). They would imply that the 2 ships execute the turn together and therefore only absolute bearings and distance are preserved. Of course a small speed/rudder adjustment can be needed to maintain the exact position......

I think only "Red (Compass) Pendant" turns imply speed adjustments between different divisions (columns), but this is only related to a full maneuvering fleet (e.g. at Jutland).....


If the course change at 2:03 was a "Blue" one while PoW was on Hood starboard side, then PoW would end on Hood port side after the turn to 200°.


Bye, Alberto
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:19 pm

Hello everybody,

@ All,

something like this ...
Hood_PoW_200_220_240_01.jpg
Hood_PoW_200_220_240_01.jpg (25.33 KiB) Viewed 644 times
Hood_PoW_240_starboard_port_01.jpg
Hood_PoW_240_starboard_port_01.jpg (19.11 KiB) Viewed 644 times
Hood_PoW_240_280_01.jpg
Hood_PoW_240_280_01.jpg (20.2 KiB) Viewed 644 times
Bye Antonio :D
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:38 pm

Hi All

Thanks for that Alberto and Antonio, it was just some confusion on my part as during the battle Hood also manoeuvred by use of a 2 blue pendant at 05.55 and at 06.00 and PoW did not end up to port of Hood?

But I understand the reasoning and bow to superior knowledge. I've re read Leach's report and battle flags were hoisted at 00.15 so those pics must be earlier on the 22nd or 23rd maybe during RiX exercises on destroyers? I cannot see any large battle flag flying on Hood.

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Nov 04, 2016 12:46 pm

Cag wrote:"as during the battle Hood also manoeuvred by use of a 2 blue pendant at 05.55 and at 06.00 and PoW did not end up to port of Hood?"
Hi Mr.Cag,
being Hood on a 230° bearing from PoW on course 300°, and moving to a 280° course, the mere 20° turn to port would not be enough to move PoW on Hood port side...... a 90° "Blue" turn would have certainly done.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by paulcadogan » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:30 pm

Hi all,

@Alberto:

The reason I suggested Hood would have to cross astern of PoW was that crossing ahead with such a short distance between the two could be risky, especially at 28 knots. The separation of the two ships would decrease as Hood moved across, risking collision... which Hood already had experienced, under very different circumstances, with Renown in 1935.

@Cag: I see what you mean re the battle ensigns. but wouldn't they have been lowered once it was realized that action was not about to take place? After all, the ships' crews were allowed to stand down. Still I would expect that by 0500 - with Holland signalling "Instant readiness for action" they would have been up again. But in the first photo you can make out an ensign just above the starfish of Hood's mainmast. Could another, flying from behind the spotting to (no foretop mast) be obscured in this view?

@Antonio: That's pretty much how I figured it. The only thing would be if, as Cag said, PoW would adjust her position after each turn to keep her station. But if that was the intention, then why use Blue Pendant turns?
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Nov 04, 2016 1:47 pm

Paul Cadogan wrote: "....crossing ahead with such a short distance between the two could be risky, especially at 28 knots."
Hi Paul,
I agree, but possibly Hood could have increased speed a bit to 29 knots to minimize risks.

Being already at 28 knots, the time to pass from, let's say, 500 meters behind (after slowing) to 500 meters ahead for a Hood forcing at 29 knots would have been more than half an hour (without slowing PoW, as this is not mentioned by Leach).... As the maneuver was taking just 15 mins (including exchanging orders re. the guide of the fleet), I don't see how Hood could have slowed, passed behind and (mostly) recovered his ahead position.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by paulcadogan » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:12 pm

Hi Alberto,

I see what you're saying, and you may be right.

Here's an interesting entry from PoW's log:

0353: 28 knots
0450: Took over guide.
0505: "Hood" resumed guide. Full speed. (my bold)

This may be where Hood pushed to 29 knots and PoW had to pull out all the stops to keep up with her!

Paul
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:27 pm

Hi All

Thanks Alberto as I say I will always bow to those with superior knowledge.

Just another question to Antonio which may have already been answered so apologies if it has, if PoW was stationed on the starboard quarter of Hood which would relate to her previous 090° station position if both ships turned onto course 200° (ie the 160° turn or 16BT) at the same moment (both ships together) would the arcs of each ships turn have put PoW on Hoods port bow after the turn or are we assuming PoW slowed to remain on Hoods quarter all be it now her port quarter?

It's just as at the point of the turn the ships would not have been level with one another if PoW were behind and to starboard of Hood as we assume she maintained her previous station and PoW could not have continued on course 000° up to the point where Hood turned as this arc would have brought her back onto Hoods starboard side.

I'm sorry for the questions it just an attempt to understand and help. We know both Hood and PoW would have naturally lost speed in the turn so PoW would have needed to also slow intentionally to maintain station but Holland ordered PoW to search from 020° to 140° with her 284 rdf after the turn and therefore Hood would presumably have been stationed either beyond 020° on PoW starboard bow or 140° on PoW starboard quarter?

Thanks for the help and patience
Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Nov 04, 2016 2:49 pm

Cag wrote: "...if PoW was stationed on the starboard quarter of Hood.......if PoW were behind and to starboard of Hood"
Hi Mr.Cag,
I'm not sure what you mean exactly and I may be interpreting wrong.... :think:

If you refer to 2:03, as all previous turns were done by Blue Pendant from 23:15, the absolute bearing of PoW from Hood would still be 90° both before and after the turn, as it was even until 04:50. PoW was therefore not on the starboard quarter of Hood before the turn.

PoW would be in perfect parallel with Hood, exactly on her starboard beam, while sailing north from 00:17 till 02:03. The turn (executed together) to 200° would put her on the Hood port beam, just slightly behind, thus the request to search from 20° to 140°where Hood was obscured by PoW (see first drawing posted by Antonio on this page while on course 200°) .


Bye, Alberto
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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:09 pm

Hi All

Sorry Mr Cadogan I missed your post, yes that is a distinct possibility, they may have been lowered and raised on sighting Bismarck or just prior to as you say that is a very good point!

Hoods guns are pointing to port as are PoW could this have been due tothe fire control signals or was this just to do with coordination of signals not gunnery?

Hi Alberto thanks if PoW was stationed on the compass bearing 090° on a course of 285° the bearing 090° from Hoods point of view would be off Hoods starboard quarter would it not? On Rowell's map he states Hood was stationed on a bearing of 260° throughout the action ie Hood was on a compass bearing of 260°. If PoW was at an angle of 90° ie alongside would Leach have not phrased it differently?

Thanks again for the help I did receive a hefty bang on the head recently so may account for my lack of understanding! Its just I can't get why Holland would ask the ship to port to search to starboard? Would this indicate a problem with Hoods 284 that developed en route or would Hood be searching 000° to 020° who knows?

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 04, 2016 3:31 pm

Hi All

Hi Alberto I've just checked and Leach does state PoW was stationed on a bearing 090° from Hood. Am I correct in thinking this is the compass bearing 090° from Hood (like Rowell's 260° bearing from PoW to Hood) or have I got that wrong?

Would Leach have said Hoods green 90 if he had been alongside or said a beam of Hood? You know I'm not sure now I assumed 090° bearing was a compass bearing but I may be wrong which is not unknown! If PoW was alongside Hood after the turn but to port would Hood have not masked PoW rdf? I'm now more confused than ever!

Thanks for the help
Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by paulcadogan » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:14 pm

Cag wrote:Hi Alberto thanks if PoW was stationed on the compass bearing 090° on a course of 285° the bearing 090° from Hoods point of view would be off Hoods starboard quarter would it not? On Rowell's map he states Hood was stationed on a bearing of 260° throughout the action ie Hood was on a compass bearing of 260°. If PoW was at an angle of 90° ie alongside would Leach have not phrased it differently?
Hi Cag,

After the 160 degree turn by Blue Pendant, PoW would have been on Hood's PORT quarter as shown in Antonio's track chart. She would still bear close to 90 degrees true from Hood I would think, since the two ships turned together.

The other turns to 220 and then to 240 were also by Blue Pendant, keeping PoW on Hood;'s port quarter. So at 0450, it was necessary to shift PoW to Hood's starboard quarter for the coming action - hence the guide change and maneuver to put Hood at 230 degrees true from PoW, which, on a course of 240 would be 10 degrees on PoW's port bow.

Hmmm...that wouldn't fit with the position of Hood shown in the photos...

During the battle Hood bore 260 deg from PoW, so there must have been a further change to 260, or Leach's narrative is in error and the bearing was 260 from the start?
Cag wrote:Hoods guns are pointing to port as are PoW could this have been due to the fire control signals or was this just to do with coordination of signals not gunnery?
The forward guns of both ships are trained hard to port, abaft the beam because of the sea state and spray drenching their forecastles. That I assume was to prevent the open gun barrels from filling with sea water. I think training the forward turrets out of the line of spray was standard practice in those conditions like in this photo of Renown:

Image

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Bill Jurens » Fri Nov 04, 2016 6:55 pm

Hello Gentlemen:

I wonder if some of the confusion may lie in the mixed use of both magnetic and true courses and bearings. The magnetic declination in the areas we are talking about seems to have been in the vicinity of 20 degrees, so the differences could be significant. I suspect that in some reports magnetic values might have been used, but in other reports true values were reported.

This is not my area of expertise, so comments welcome...

Bill Jurens

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by Cag » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:01 pm

Hi All

Thanks Paul and Mr Jurens any help on my part is most appreciated. I'm sure that Antonios projections are correct it's just confusing me as to PoW being on a bearing of 090° from Hood as I assumed this would be a compass bearing.

This then meant I couldn't understand the rdf order as if PoW was alongside Hood on her port side Hood herself would have masked PoW rdf from 020°-140°. That's why I wondered if PoW was on Hoods port quarter meaning the 090° was a compass bearing? ( oh dear my brain hurts)

Best wishes
Cag.

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Re: May 23/24 night shadowing and interception approach CS1/BC1

Post by paulcadogan » Fri Nov 04, 2016 7:42 pm

Cag wrote:This then meant I couldn't understand the rdf order as if PoW was alongside Hood on her port side Hood herself would have masked PoW rdf from 020°-140°. That's why I wondered if PoW was on Hoods port quarter meaning the 090° was a compass bearing? ( oh dear my brain hurts)
Hi Cag,

Once the turn to 200 was made by BP, PoW would be to port of Hood - i.e. Hood is now to starboard of PoW so would not mask a radar search to port from 020 - 140. I've borrowed Antonio's illustration to show this:

Search area = red arrows with orange arc. (approximation only)
PoW Radar search order.jpg
PoW Radar search order.jpg (33.69 KiB) Viewed 586 times
I guess that was in case the enemy had indeed turned south and might therefore escape to the east of them.

Paul
Qui invidet minor est - He who envies is the lesser man

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