The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

despite the overwhelming evidences provided about this regrettable aftermath, the trolling activity of the deniers at any cost of this shameful page is continuing.

It has been not enough to find the intentional altered documents, ... the original letters of Adm Tovey to Stephen Roskill declaring the facts, ... the connections upwards with the line of command, ... the War cabinet minutes asking for the inquiry, ... the connections with the politicians up to Churchill, ... and everything not written or discovered by me, ... but clearly written in British books from the 70's until today by the British most famous historians writing about the Royal Navy history.
Stephen Roskill, the Royal Navy Official historian for WW2 has been the one to preserve and publish on his 1977 book " Churchill and the Admirals " the document references that enabled me to find the final part of the truth about this story.

For them is not enough.
Nothing is enough and will never be enough for the ones that do not want the truth to Surface.
They will do everything possible to hide it and try to keep on refuting the reality as it shows.
Like Franz Joseph said about Mayerling : " Everything is better than the truth. "
They intentionally " avoided " to show us the content of well known British books by them, ... they wrote post's with the clear intent to diverge the attention from those authors and books, ... telling us that there was nothing interesting in there, ... nothing of any importance.

it is enough to go back on this thread at the beginning and also on other previous threads about this matter to read and verify what has been the intentional activity performed in this direction, ... an intentional trolling activity becoming more and more evident as we were coming up to the truth, ... until today.
But it has been useless, ... an useless effort because we have discovered the truth no matter what, ... and now it is available in this thread for everybody to read and realize it.
This Court Martial attempt story is real, ... was real and it will be published with full details and historical references and there is nothing that the "deniers at any cost" can do about it.

We do have the British Official Royal Navy historians on our side (all of them !), much more important that a couple of "deniers".

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

not only we could have find the truth by reading Stephen Roskill " Churchill and the Admirals " 1977 book, but also thru Corelli Barnett 1991 book " Engage the enemy more closely " as you can verify yourself :
Corelli_Barnett_page_299.jpg
Corelli_Barnett_page_299.jpg (69.12 KiB) Viewed 824 times
Corelli_Barnett_footnote_43.jpg
Corelli_Barnett_footnote_43.jpg (6.98 KiB) Viewed 824 times
We could have find Adm Tovey original letters also thru this book as you can read and verify, ... connecting it to the Roskill Churchill archives 4/17, ... and obviously to the Adm 205/10 thru the Roskill 1977 book.

No doubts for Corelli Barnett, ... like for Stephen Roskill ... and Graham Rhys-Jones, ... etc etc etc ... :wink:

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Duncan,

You are absolutely correct:
This is all that Broadhurst has to say about a potential CMDS. It is certainly telling that Pound's biographer cannot source the CMDS threat to anyone in Pound's circle but has to use Tovey.
It is even worse that Leach's biographer did not investigate such a threat against his subject more closely, being happy to deal with undated second or third hand retellings.

I am intensely disappointed that Graham Rhys-Jones (who is excellent in all other respects) has parroted the CMDS story, additionally describing a process of investigation of which no other evidence exists.
When Pound and Phillips showed they were going to leave no stone unturned in their search for errors and omissions, the stage was set for some sharp differences of opinion between the Admiralty and the C-in-C.
On what does he base this? Does this happen before Tovey has reached harbour so that the threat can be made on arrival? I suspect like many serving officers in the period of the RN's decline as the sun set on the British Empire, Rhys-Jones was prepared to promote any story that showed politicians in a poor light. True or not.

If this is meant to be me: :shock:
They intentionally " avoided " to show us the content of well known British books by them,
I have enthusiastically suggested that interested parties should read these titles themselves to get the full picture and specifically highlighted Brodhurst's examples of Pound's court martial predilection. Cutting out fragments to promote an argument whilst leaving out the qualifiers the authors included (Roskill citing Kennedy) (Barnett ["according to Tovey's later account]" ) etc is geniuinely poor behaviour.

However

Brodhurst spends the whole of page 113 describing Roskill's unfair bias against Pound, so it is poor practice that he repeats the CMDS story passed so conveniently by Roskill to Kennedy, except that he transmogrifies the Scapa Flow phone call into a letter. Since he cites no source at all for CMDS it is not surprising that the detail is wrong. He also says :
Wake-Walker's reply that he doubted if PoW has sufficient speed to force an action infuriated Pound and after the action he wrote to Tovey demanding W-W and Leach be court-martialled
Bizarre that whilst so infuriated he sent Wake-Walker a signal calling his efforts "admirable".

Once again reasoned argument is misclassified as "trolling".

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

the only right thing I am reading here above, ... now for the first time since years, ... is that who wants to " deny at any cost " what has been revealed on British written and published books, ... preserved by British historians on their archives, ... taken and utilized as reliable source by other British book writers after, ... until recently, ... do have only one way to do it.

Go to their British book editors and ask them to publish a formal clarification if they believe to you and your current theory of Adm Tovey unreliability and not anymore on their book authors.

I wish you good luck on trying to " turn back " what has been written by Graham Rhys-Jones and Corelli Barnett ... just to list the most important recently surfaced, ... both referencing to Stephen Roskill 1977 book " Churchill and the Admirals " page 125, ... and to add to this attempt also the " turn back " of the 2 books 1976+1977 by Stephen Roskill, where this story is written and well supported by document references ( Adm205/10) as well as by his personal opinion ( " ... this historian fully agrees. " ) having been the Royal Navy Official historian for WW2 and having served 5 years under Adm Pound, ... and having talked in person with Adm Tovey form many years.

You may ask the help of that arrogant person that wanted to use legal actions against me and peer review my work, ... he surely will support your efforts on demonstrate the truth, ... against Roskill, ... against Corelli Barnett and Graham Rhys-Jones, ... just as he wanted to do it against me, ... :wink:

Do not forget to ask also the Naval Review to write a similar correction statement of their 1980 issue, declaring that they failed Adm Tovey healt status evaluation when they wrote the article about him too.
Published in the Naval Review issue of July 1980, on page 209 :

http://www.naval-review.com/issues/1980s/1980-3.pdf

Of course you will be so kind to ask the Adm Tovey internet page webmsaster's to publish a similar correction statement too :

http://www.tovey.org/admiral.html

Because you know the truth of his mental state at the time of his declarations to Stephen Roskill, ... and of course you can easily demonstrate it against S. Roskill written opinion at that time, ... and to everybody here listed in case of need, ... including us.

Not to forget several Wikipedia links, ... :wink:

We are all here waiting for your evidence of Adm Tovey unreliability due to his mental state.

Lets see how far you will go with your attempt, ... meanwhile we are waiting your results here and we have ready at hand our evidence of the opposite, lets see who has more in his hands.

But if you are just unable to do it and demonstrate that, ... please avoid to come here in again just using your " trolling " approach, ... joking and ridiculing with your statements who just listed the available evidences, ... writing on and on that you do not trust what is available published since many years by very important British historians, ... and well supported by British Official documents on the archives.

The only one that now are becoming more and more ridiculous, ... are just you.

Enough said, ...

Bye, Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

Thanks for bringing forward yet another muddled version of the legend in the Mariner's Mirror. That is the trouble with this CMDS story, everyone is so keen to get this salacious gossip in print they don't bother to check its veracity or the details, or why noboby published it before Kennedy. :shock: This version says it is Churchill personally making the CMDS threat. There is only one source for any of this stuff, Tovey's 1961 letter in which he claims he told Roskill in 1954.

We all know that Tovey told Roskill several things which were incorrect in 1954. We know he said the towing signal was before the Ark's airstrike which was incorrect. We know he said he was instructed to pursue to the shores of France which was incorrect. We know he specified bearings only and then complained when he didn't receive a worked-out solution.

As for your observation
writing on and on that you do not trust what is available published since many years by very important British historians
I thought you had told us many times that we should not trust what has been written for 72 years! :D

Seen any relevant letters from Pound to Tovey? Say on August 1st or 17th?

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

Stephen Roskill books, letters and archive content are more than enough to close this now usless debate, including Adm Tovey reliability, ... once for good.

The case is closed.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

in order to provide the logic way to read all this story, here the main links to the related arguments and threads since we started on 2013 :


1) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The beginning of this story with the War Cabinet May/June 1941 minutes
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728

2) Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War -> The real reasons for the inquiry initial intention by Adm Pound.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5830

3) Hit on POW compass platform -> The truth about the HMS Prince of Wales disengagement time and reasons
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6276

4) The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait -> The truth about the 2 heavy cruisers distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8231

5) The Plot -> What as been done in order to "change" the previously declared heavy cruiser distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6495

6) Cover up synopsis -> What has been done by Adm Tovey to "change" the reality and enable the Officers recognition
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799

7) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The final closure by the Admiralty and Churchill on Adm 205/10
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728

This part of the Denmark Strait battle analysis can be considered now finished.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Indeed, Hello Everybody,

Only Section 1 has anything to do with what actually happened in 1941, all the others are unsubstantiated speculation generated for reasons depressingly obvious.

What this thread has established is:

There is only one witness statement recorded, alleging a threat was made, written by Tovey in 1961 and saying he had previously told Roskill this in 1954. There were no other witnesses and Pound himself never mentioned it.

The threat is alleged to have been made on arrival at Scapa Flow on 30th May 1941, ie before Pound had any more information, reports, track charts, logs with regard to Denmark Strait than he had on the 24th. Those accounts which suggest that detailed analysis was made before coming to a conclusion for prosecution are therefore factually incorrect, since Tovey himself says the threat was made on the 30th, ie before even his interim report was read. There is no mention of disciplinary action for any officer concerned in the Bismarck Chase in the contemporary records.

Although Pound deliberately stated that the correctness of Leach's decision to withdraw from action was in question in his interim report to the War Cabinet on 26th May, nobody specifically asked for more detail on this matter in this or subsequent War Cabinet minutes. Pound volunteered that various occurrences at Denmark Strait would need further enquiry but an impartial reader would gather this included much more important matters such as why Hood blew up and why British radio transmissions disabled British radar.

Pound's assistant on 31st July (2 months later) noted the Secretary of the War Cabinet had asked whether there would be a report and Pound said he would show a copy of Tovey's full report. Evidently this was not done, apparently with no repercussions, because a further two months later Pound writes to the First Lord A V Alexander saying nothing has been done and suggesting a procedure. Alexander contacts the PM who says "Leave It!"

That no importance at all relates to this threat or perceived threat, if Tovey misinterpreted Pound's words, is clear from this photograph http://www.iwm.org.uk/collections/item/object/205185372 showing Churchill, Pound and Leach having an affable discussion on PoW's quarterdeck between 11:30 and 13:00 on 4th August 1941. This is less than a week after the initial bureaucratic enquiry by the War Cabinet Secretary as to whether a report of any sort was to be made. It is only 10 weeks after Churchill was said to be have been enraged by Leach's actions. Evidently the Great Man had forgotten his ill-informed initial response sometime previously.

This Court Martial threat has been over-emphasised in various later works, without being subjected to anything like the scrutiny we have given it. It remains uncorroborated and unproven.

All the best

wadinga
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

if few persons with the clear intention to " deny at any cost " what is so evident and available to be read into the official documents declare themselves so incompetent to be still unable to understand and mostly to admit what is today available, I cannot care less at this point.

I avoid to list all the book writers and historians ( mostly British ), the Royal Navy Officers like C. McMullen that have mentioned in their publications or interview this Court Martial attempt by Adm Pound defeated by Adm Tovey, ... we did it already several times and are all listed above, ... and among the very many that did it I choose 2 persons to be highlighted :

1 ) Stephen Roskill, the Royal Navy historian for World War 2, that carefully took care of preserving Adm Tovey original letters to him and kept track of the other related documents into the archives (Adm 205/10) enabling us to find the truth, from Adm Tovey up to Adm Pound, Sir Alexander and finally to Sir W. Churchill.

2) Sir Henry Leach that baptized this all occurrence " The Denmark Strait Saga ", he was the son of one of the 2 Officers involved on it and he later became Royal Navy First Sea Lord, and confirmed the Court Martial attempt occurrence involving his father while super-visioning his father biography book.

I personally think that is more than enough.

Since the " trolling " activity intent is to overwrite my post in order to try to cover the shame of the reality that one can easily realize by reading this story as it occurred, I intentionally propose again the list of the threads were anybody willing to read the truth can find it following a logic path and make up his own mind about it.

1) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The beginning of this story with the War Cabinet May/June 1941 minutes
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728

2) Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War -> The real reasons for the inquiry initial intention by Adm Pound.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5830

3) Hit on POW compass platform -> The truth about the HMS Prince of Wales disengagement time and reasons
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6276

4) The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait -> The truth about the 2 heavy cruisers distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8231

5) The Plot -> What as been done in order to "change" the previously declared heavy cruiser distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6495

6) Cover up synopsis -> What has been done by Adm Tovey to "change" the reality and enable the Officers recognition
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799

7) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The final closure by the Admiralty and Churchill on Adm 205/10
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728


It is obvious that many would like that the shame of having intentionally altered Official documents ... in order to change the reality and avoid to proceed against 2 Officers and immediately after even proposing them for a King recognition, ... will never be read and realized by anybody, ... because it is hard to accept even 76 years after, ... but that is the truth of what happened, ... and is there to be read by everybody now.

I hope that sooner or later the intentional " trolling " activity about all this will finally stop.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro »

Antonio, why not just admit that Tovey is the sole source for a CMDS?
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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani »

Duncan,
why not just admit that you and Sean are the only two ones still denying Tovey's story reliability about the CMDS, against ALL historians advise, direct witnesses testimony (Roskill and McMullen) and "interested" parties clear opinion (Sir Henry) ? :stubborn:

Who else on earth could have an interest in referring this story except Tovey ? :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everytbody,

with Adm Pound dead, who else could have referred about their phone call content about the Inquiry - Court Martial request for Capt Leach and RearAdm Wake-Walker ? Only Adm Tovey could have revealed the content of that phone call. It is easy to admit that the main source is Adm Tovey, not having Adm Pound similar evidence available, ... but looking at what we have found so far, ... we never know what we can still find about all this shameful story providing additional but surely not necessary confirmations at this point, because Adm Tovey original letter to Stephen Roskill is more than enough to prove it.

It is obvious that ALL the others involved on it did not have any interest on declaring such a shameful series od events and consequent actions taken.

What is irrefutable and well evident is the intentional alteration of the documents ( Tovey dispatches ) they had to do in order to close the matter ( Admiralty Barnes letter ) and proceed the way they jointly decided ( Adm 205/10 ) at the time of the events on the summer of 1941.

It was such an incredible shame that I realized it from the bottom, ... from the data mismatches into the Tovey dispatches, ... and I have re-constructed it bottom up, ... finally finding the evidence even at the highest political level thanking Stephen Roskill.

Nothing else needs to be said about it, ... all is clear, logic and well demonstrated now and we do not need Erodoto or Tucidide to teach us how to read and connect all those events writing this very regrettable aftermath story.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga »

Hello Antonio,

I presume for you
Since the " trolling " activity intent is to overwrite my post
overwriting means you absolutely insist on having the very last word in any thread. This is rather high-handed don't you think? :cool:
we never know what we can still find about all this shameful story


All the more reason to continue to investigate. although there is nothing "shameful" found so far, merely the collation of various accounts and clarification of minor anomalies. Since your intent has been to automatically assume guilt of some sort in every case the mere changing of information in the light of new information is proof of such guilt.

As for Duncan and myself being the only remaining arguers, well I suspect everyone else is bored to death with this unreasoning witchhunt , but acquiescence surely does not imply agreement.

Since we established that Pound, if he made this threat, did so without actually having any more information on Leach's actions than he did on the 24th, and had endorsed Wake-Walker's actions with "admirable", we move on to what documentary evidence there is that any RN officer's actions were under review in the Bismarck Chase.

All the best

wadinga
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Cag
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Cag »

Hi All

The main point here is the wording used in the letter or indeed every quote taken directly from this letter.

If we are to use this evidence we must use exactly the terms written by the person who made them. Tovey states that on his return to Scapa a telephone conversation took place in which

a) the charge threatened was not re engaging Bismarck to both Leach and Wake-Walker.
b) Toveys reasoning against this threat was his concern of pushing Bismarck too far West and away from his ships which were in pursuit.
c) Tovey states (and according to McMullens memory of Tovey talking about this in 1962) that after his rebuttal of Pounds threat he heard no more about it.

If Pound, Churchill and Alexander were complicit and a cover up which was instigated by Pound and carried out by Tovey is put forward, we are then suggesting that this last statement is a lie. This telephone conversation would have taken place before all the facts were available. The charge regards re engagement not disengagement.

In his letter Tovey states he only confided in Bingley and Paffard about the conversation, and he wished this not to become public because he did not want Wake-Walker (not Leach note) criticised and because to put it in his own words "to have a crack at DP while he was unable to have a crack back".

The matter of the disengagement is covered in Toveys personal letter to Pound, and Leach's report, both of which we have seen either mentioned in the cabinet meeting papers or were included in Toveys despatch.

We know PoW Y turret was out of action until 08.25hrs and that Y2 gun was out of action until 13.00hrs.

Best wished
Cag.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi »

Hello everybody,

and here we go with no value add with the " trolls " coming here again with the only intention to turn the page of this thread and hide the full re-construction logic links where everybody can read in full details the shame of what has been done 76 years ago.

The shameful " cover up " done in order not to proceed with a deserved investigation for a couple of cowards and instead recognize them with a medal by the King, everyhing blessed by Admiralty and Politicians, even intentionally modifying official documents in order to do it.

Everything written and available to be read by everybody in the archives.

Like turning a page on this forum can hide the above truth and reduce the bad smell of this can of worms finally opened and under the eyes of everybody to be realized.

A pathetic way to act by the ones that are with no arguments left anymore, with all the evidence cleary against them and written by British Official Historians.

Here the links once again, so everybody can read the shame of what as been done, how and by whom :

1) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The beginning of this story with the War Cabinet May/June 1941 minutes
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728

2) Denmark Strait and RN Articles of War -> The real reasons for the inquiry initial intention by Adm Pound.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=5830

3) Hit on POW compass platform -> The truth about the HMS Prince of Wales disengagement time and reasons
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6276

4) The Norfolk and Suffolk tracks at Denmark Strait -> The truth about the 2 heavy cruisers distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8231

5) The Plot -> What as been done in order to "change" the previously declared heavy cruiser distance during the battle
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6495

6) Cover up synopsis -> What has been done by Adm Tovey to "change" the reality and enable the Officers recognition
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799

7) The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait -> The final closure by the Admiralty and Churchill on Adm 205/10
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6728

Obviously, ... in the highest tradition ...

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
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