The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Moderator: Bill Jurens
- Antonio Bonomi
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
- Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
any average intelligent person should and can realize very easily that the May 31st, 1941 letter between Adm Tovey and Adm Pound only reinforce and additionally confirms what Adm Tovey wrote to Stephen Roskill about this Board of Inquiry -> Court Martial attempt story years after the war.
In fact I can hardly imagine anybody trying to sustain that the May 31st, 1941 letter between Tovey and Pound was requesting anything different that the above, ... or later supporting the rewarding for the 2 involved Officers, namely Wake-Walker and Leach, that occurred on October 14th, 1941.
Here is what this debate is all about, ... apparently there are persons that still like to support Sir L. Kennedy novel and version of the facts written on his book Pursuit, ... despite what has been found and demonstrated lately, ...
... and there are persons that in the opposite are supporting Adm Tovey and Sir Henry Leach, ... Stephen Roskill, Corelli-Barnett, Graham Rhys-Jones, Robin Brodhurst, ... and many other British recognized historians, ... about this " regrettable aftermath " that the " Denmark Strait Saga " is all about.
I personally support only the second group of persons and I can very hardly see anybody writing about this story from now onward, ... trying to propose once again Sir Ludovic Kennedy " sugar coated " invented version of those facts, in light of the recently surfaced evidence we have today.
Bye Antonio
any average intelligent person should and can realize very easily that the May 31st, 1941 letter between Adm Tovey and Adm Pound only reinforce and additionally confirms what Adm Tovey wrote to Stephen Roskill about this Board of Inquiry -> Court Martial attempt story years after the war.
In fact I can hardly imagine anybody trying to sustain that the May 31st, 1941 letter between Tovey and Pound was requesting anything different that the above, ... or later supporting the rewarding for the 2 involved Officers, namely Wake-Walker and Leach, that occurred on October 14th, 1941.
Here is what this debate is all about, ... apparently there are persons that still like to support Sir L. Kennedy novel and version of the facts written on his book Pursuit, ... despite what has been found and demonstrated lately, ...
... and there are persons that in the opposite are supporting Adm Tovey and Sir Henry Leach, ... Stephen Roskill, Corelli-Barnett, Graham Rhys-Jones, Robin Brodhurst, ... and many other British recognized historians, ... about this " regrettable aftermath " that the " Denmark Strait Saga " is all about.
I personally support only the second group of persons and I can very hardly see anybody writing about this story from now onward, ... trying to propose once again Sir Ludovic Kennedy " sugar coated " invented version of those facts, in light of the recently surfaced evidence we have today.
Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
"He wrote to Tovey demanding" Where is the quote of the actual words, where is the footnote, where is the detailed citation? There are none because "it would appear" (remember that is what we say when we are guessing/ speculating) he lazily parroted the allegation from secondary sources, without verifying it himself, an appalling shortcoming for a biographer of Pound. Nowhere in the material we have access to does Tovey say "he wrote to me". It was always a telephone call.
All the best
wadinga
(only he is able of such low insinuations in a formerly civilized forum)
I believe this is quite impossible:Wadinga wrote: "Did you remove the reference to the towing signal when you reproduced the 1961 letter leaving 1)
Hi Sean,
yes I did,
So you freely admit withholding the 11 lines. This surely accepts that you have redacted Tovey's letter.
Quoted in bibliography? Never read? What on earth does this even mean? Prove somebody never read something because they never quote from it, never cite from it and never refer to it specifically. Simply because he lists several folios including many hundreds if not thousands of pages?Mr.Wadinga should demonstrate that Brodhurst never read what he explicitely quoted in bibliography, if he is able to do it
"He wrote to Tovey demanding" Where is the quote of the actual words, where is the footnote, where is the detailed citation? There are none because "it would appear" (remember that is what we say when we are guessing/ speculating) he lazily parroted the allegation from secondary sources, without verifying it himself, an appalling shortcoming for a biographer of Pound. Nowhere in the material we have access to does Tovey say "he wrote to me". It was always a telephone call.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
Mr.Wadinga is confiming in the above post to be a very unfair person, accusing others to redact info just because they avoid to reproduce the full text of a book when quoting a page........ Shameful and very miserable.
I just remind to everybody that he has already been told (by a person who was sustaining his position) that my account of Tovey letters was fair.
What an authoritative judgement from the great histonian Mr.Wadinga, a poor person who is unable to admit his defeat.
He should address these nice comments to Brodhurst, who would slam him as he deserves.....
Bye, Alberto
Mr.Wadinga is confiming in the above post to be a very unfair person, accusing others to redact info just because they avoid to reproduce the full text of a book when quoting a page........ Shameful and very miserable.
I just remind to everybody that he has already been told (by a person who was sustaining his position) that my account of Tovey letters was fair.
Wadinga wrote: "he lazily parroted the allegation from secondary sources, without verifying it himself,"
What an authoritative judgement from the great histonian Mr.Wadinga, a poor person who is unable to admit his defeat.
He should address these nice comments to Brodhurst, who would slam him as he deserves.....
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
You have said:
Although most of Mr Brodhurst's book is excellent, you may recall I brought it to most people's attention, it has its limitations.
His credentials are that he attended Sandhurst and he is Head of History at one of Britain's foremost public schools, Ampleforth. Churchill's Anchor appears to be his only published work. He cannot be considered an authoritative naval historian.
I address my comment to you because you have quoted Brodhurst. Do you accept Brodhurst wrote:
"He wrote to Tovey demanding"
That there is no quote of the actual words, there is no footnote, and there is no detailed citation. In Brodhurst's book, there is no evidence at all to support this statement, which contradicts Tovey's own assertion that it was a phone call.
All the best
wadinga
You have said:
My underlining.Mr. Wadinga should address this comment to Mr.Brodhurst, who dedicated histo write a biography of Sir D.Poundreputed historian skill
Although most of Mr Brodhurst's book is excellent, you may recall I brought it to most people's attention, it has its limitations.
His credentials are that he attended Sandhurst and he is Head of History at one of Britain's foremost public schools, Ampleforth. Churchill's Anchor appears to be his only published work. He cannot be considered an authoritative naval historian.
I address my comment to you because you have quoted Brodhurst. Do you accept Brodhurst wrote:
"He wrote to Tovey demanding"
That there is no quote of the actual words, there is no footnote, and there is no detailed citation. In Brodhurst's book, there is no evidence at all to support this statement, which contradicts Tovey's own assertion that it was a phone call.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
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- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
"Most of Brodhurst book is excellent" but.... just about the DS Court Martial.... he is wrong.....
Having available both May 31 1941 letter and 1961 letter (as per his bibliography), he stated that pound WROTE to Tovey to Court Martial Leach and Wake-Walker. Why ? Mr.Wadinga should ask him not me, because between Brodhurst and Mr.Wadinga I have no doubt who I have to trust.
BTW, parroted who ? Who else is stating that the threat was in writing ?
Bye, Alberto
while Mr.Wadinga cannot be considered an historian at all.Wadinga wrote: "He cannot be considered an authoritative naval historian.....most of Mr Brodhurst's book is excellent.....He lazily parroted the allegation from secondary sources, without verifying it himself,"
"Most of Brodhurst book is excellent" but.... just about the DS Court Martial.... he is wrong.....
Having available both May 31 1941 letter and 1961 letter (as per his bibliography), he stated that pound WROTE to Tovey to Court Martial Leach and Wake-Walker. Why ? Mr.Wadinga should ask him not me, because between Brodhurst and Mr.Wadinga I have no doubt who I have to trust.
BTW, parroted who ? Who else is stating that the threat was in writing ?
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
One of the few things this long wrangle has established is that the only source of information is Tovey, and Tovey only wrote of a phone call.
Whilst you continue to grossly denigrate Ludovic Kennedy's authoritative book, Pursuit, and his credentials as an honoured investigative writer on matters of history, there is no reason why I cannot have and share an opinion on certain aspects of Brodhurst's work.
There has been so much erroneous writing over the Court Martial threat, little if any of which cites the only source, Roskill's 1961 letter, that identifying those who have added "colour" without evidence eg "infuriated" or "wrote" or "ordered" would be a pointless exercise.
All the best
wadinga
You have the May 31st letter because I supplied it. Antonio must have had the May 31st letter a long while before you, because he went to the National Archives and was in the same building as it, even if he didn't know it.Having available both May 31 1941 letter
One of the few things this long wrangle has established is that the only source of information is Tovey, and Tovey only wrote of a phone call.
Whilst you continue to grossly denigrate Ludovic Kennedy's authoritative book, Pursuit, and his credentials as an honoured investigative writer on matters of history, there is no reason why I cannot have and share an opinion on certain aspects of Brodhurst's work.
There has been so much erroneous writing over the Court Martial threat, little if any of which cites the only source, Roskill's 1961 letter, that identifying those who have added "colour" without evidence eg "infuriated" or "wrote" or "ordered" would be a pointless exercise.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3605
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
BTW, who did Brodhurst parrot ? Who else is stating that the threat was in writing ?
Bye, Alberto
Therefore Mr.Wadinga CANNOT doubt (without evidence) that Brodhurst read the May 31 letter, being interested in Pound correspondence, and as he stated "Pound WROTE to Tovey" IMO this means he had read also Pound May 28 one, in the same file Mr.Wadinga is hiding to prevent any check......Wadinga wrote: "I have told you the May 31st letter is in one of the files listed in Brodhurst's book"
Sure, but his opinion, without ANY supporting evidence, counts less than zero compared to Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones AND (mostly in this case) Brodhurst one..... Kennedy insinuation about Tovey memory is proved to be false by May 31 letter and by Roskill written opinion to him.Wadinga wrote: "there is no reason why I cannot have and share an opinion"
BTW, who did Brodhurst parrot ? Who else is stating that the threat was in writing ?
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
Who wrote, "wrote"?
All the best
wadinga
Do you honestly think that having made the breakthrough in destroying the Court Martial myth that bringing the May 31st letter to light, I believe for the first time ever, I would not go for the "double" if the 28th letter was there? Remember I am only interested in the truth, not selling a fatuous made-up conspiracy theory. Even if the 28th letter were a direct threat of CMDS, I would take the greatest pleasure in bringing it into the light of public view, something Roskill, Schofield, Grenfell, Rhys-Jones, Brodhurst or any other writer has never been able to do.in the same file Mr.Wadinga is hiding to prevent any check
Who wrote, "wrote"?
Probably the same kind of people who said the fatal shell screamed down almost vertically, until Bill Jurens proved it was much nearer the horizontal. Another Denmark Strait myth busted. Busting the Court Martial myth is just a matter of time.There has been so much erroneous writing over the Court Martial threat, little if any of which cites the only source, Roskill's 1961 letter, that identifying those who have added "colour" without evidence eg "infuriated" or "wrote" or "ordered" would be a pointless exercise.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3605
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
...sure.... ...in the same way he was willing to take to public view the 205/10 papers that confirmed the threat at the highest level, military and political...... he even dared to say that they contained nothing relevant..... until someone else posted them and he was obliged to invent the funny fantasy story of the secretary misleading his bosses......
Bye, Alberto
as he clearly demonstrated hiding the source of what he has posted.....Wadinga wrote: I" am only interested in the truth..."
Wadinga wrote: "Even if the 28th letter were a direct threat of CMDS, I would take the greatest pleasure in bringing it into the light of public view,"
...sure.... ...in the same way he was willing to take to public view the 205/10 papers that confirmed the threat at the highest level, military and political...... he even dared to say that they contained nothing relevant..... until someone else posted them and he was obliged to invent the funny fantasy story of the secretary misleading his bosses......
without giving any precise answer, because the first one was Brodhurst, who had access to May 31 letter as well, to Mr.Wadinga scorn......Wadinga wrote "Who wrote, "wrote"?"
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
-
- Senior Member
- Posts: 1658
- Joined: Sun Mar 06, 2011 1:06 am
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hmmm ..... so much for that "agree to disagree" idea. I'll check back in a year or so to see how everyone is doing.
Byron
Byron
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Byron,
Thanks for stopping by.
Hello Alberto,
wadinga
Thanks for stopping by.
Hello Alberto,
The source , well no, its the National Archives, The content I have given you.as he clearly demonstrated hiding the source of what he has posted
Which they don't, merely some bureaucratic noise in the system.confirmed the threat at the highest level, military and political...... he even dared to say that they contained nothing relevant.
This what certain matters actually were:Brockman really didn't know what "certain matters and Prima Facie" were, made it clear he was guessing in the memo to Pound and after two months of continuing high-pressure warfare neither did Pound or anybody else remember. Since it never actually says what they are in the War cabinet 54 nobody knew.
All the bestAttention was called to a BBC broadcast made by a military officer who had been on board one of his Majesty’s ships in the Bismarck action, which had given an unfavourable impression of our ships’ gunnery. Enquiry was being made by the Admiralty into this matter, and a copy of the broadcast should be circulated to the War Cabinet.
A full report would also be made regarding certain aspects of the action which, prima facie, seemed to require explanation.
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3605
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
And then..... here he is back with his personal fantasy story about Brockman misleading his bosses and British ships gunnery ! Without any shame.....
Not even worth to answer as anybody can read (except a denier like Mr.Wadinga ) which were the "certain aspects" clearly identified in ADM 205/10, like here by Pound (+ Alexander and Churchill).
Bye, Alberto
Thanks to Mr.Wadinga for confirming that he is intentionally (why? ) hiding the file name of the letter.Wadinga wrote: "The source , well no, its the National Archives, The content I have given you."
And then..... here he is back with his personal fantasy story about Brockman misleading his bosses and British ships gunnery ! Without any shame.....
Not even worth to answer as anybody can read (except a denier like Mr.Wadinga ) which were the "certain aspects" clearly identified in ADM 205/10, like here by Pound (+ Alexander and Churchill).
Of course no answer from this genial historian about the parroting (that Mr.Wadinga invented), because Brodhurst was the first one to clearly state that the Court Martial was required in writing to Tovey.I asked: "who did Brodhurst parrot ? Who else is stating that the threat was in writing ?"
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
I have already explained there is no file name or page number for the 31st letter, it is in a folio of several hundred pages, not dissimilar to 205/10.
Since Brockman clearly states "it would appear" showing it is his guesswork which causes Pound's confusion and belief the forgotten issue has resurfaced and therefore the note you have reproduced (again) this is evidence this is mere bureaucratic bungling caused by the imprecise war cabinet wording:
...Bismarck's shells , which at the range of the battle would have descended at a very steep angle and could have penetrated the old battle-cruisers deck armour."
This was written in 1977 and only ten years later, Bill Jurens exploded this frequently re-related myth with his Warship International paper.
It is bizarre that when you read Brodhurst and he says Pound "wrote" you want to imagine he had access to some secret piece of evidence which he never divulges in any form, when the only actual evidence, poor as it is, being based a memory of twenty years after the event, says it was a phone call. A more obvious conclusion is that Brodhurst is just wrong about this.
All the best
wadinga
I have already explained there is no file name or page number for the 31st letter, it is in a folio of several hundred pages, not dissimilar to 205/10.
Since Brockman clearly states "it would appear" showing it is his guesswork which causes Pound's confusion and belief the forgotten issue has resurfaced and therefore the note you have reproduced (again) this is evidence this is mere bureaucratic bungling caused by the imprecise war cabinet wording:
Interestingly, rereading Roskill's account of the mythical Court Martial threat in Churchill and the Admirals (citing Kennedy as source) he perpetrates the other Denmark Strait myth on the very same page- p125:Attention was called to a BBC broadcast made by a military officer who had been on board one of his Majesty’s ships in the Bismarck action, which had given an unfavourable impression of our ships’ gunnery. Enquiry was being made by the Admiralty into this matter, and a copy of the broadcast should be circulated to the War Cabinet.
A full report would also be made regarding certain aspects of the action which, prima facie, seemed to require explanation.
...Bismarck's shells , which at the range of the battle would have descended at a very steep angle and could have penetrated the old battle-cruisers deck armour."
This was written in 1977 and only ten years later, Bill Jurens exploded this frequently re-related myth with his Warship International paper.
It is bizarre that when you read Brodhurst and he says Pound "wrote" you want to imagine he had access to some secret piece of evidence which he never divulges in any form, when the only actual evidence, poor as it is, being based a memory of twenty years after the event, says it was a phone call. A more obvious conclusion is that Brodhurst is just wrong about this.
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"
- Alberto Virtuani
- Senior Member
- Posts: 3605
- Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
- Location: Milan (Italy)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello everybody,
I will not comment again on the crazy personal theory of Mr.Wadinga (up to now, nobody has dared to support it, not even among the deniers.... ) about Brockman error, as it is very clear that Pound, Alexander and Churchill correctly understood what the "certrain aspect" were (Churchill had even discussed them with Leach and Tovey and they could not be related to the gunnery aspects on May 27.... ). Evidences like this from Alexander are clear enough, despite Mr.Wadinga rubbished initial position that in ADM 205/10 there was nothing relevant....
The only obvious conclusion (if open-minded) would be that Brodhurst had seen also Pound written request for a Court Martial, having in his bibliography both Tovey's 1941 (BofI) and 1961 (phone call) letters.
Bye, Alberto
and he is intentionally hiding the folio number to prevent to possibly find Pound May 28 letter or any other reference to it ....Wadinga wrote: "it is in a folio of several hundred pages, not dissimilar to 205/10"
I will not comment again on the crazy personal theory of Mr.Wadinga (up to now, nobody has dared to support it, not even among the deniers.... ) about Brockman error, as it is very clear that Pound, Alexander and Churchill correctly understood what the "certrain aspect" were (Churchill had even discussed them with Leach and Tovey and they could not be related to the gunnery aspects on May 27.... ). Evidences like this from Alexander are clear enough, despite Mr.Wadinga rubbished initial position that in ADM 205/10 there was nothing relevant....
Apparently, only the "great historian" Mr.Wadinga is right, against all professional historians.....Wadinga wrote: " A more obvious conclusion is that Brodhurst is just wrong about this"
The only obvious conclusion (if open-minded) would be that Brodhurst had seen also Pound written request for a Court Martial, having in his bibliography both Tovey's 1941 (BofI) and 1961 (phone call) letters.
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)
Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait
Hello Alberto,
We have already established Brodhurst misquotes Colville both in substituting "rates" for "berates" . You even pointed out he chops a sentence in half without highlighting this.
Brodhurst is just like so many others including Tarrant lazily parroting what "everybody knows" without even bothering with whether it was a letter or as Tovey alleges, a phone call. The actual evidence including detailed references, quotes and citation dries up as soon as they start talking about the Court Martial myth because there is no serious evidence. Proper historical practice starts again once they are past it.
Now just play nice and you might get a present you want on "Hood Day"
All the best
wadinga
which he then forgot to refer to in any detail at all, quote from, or even give a citation for in his biography of Pound.would be that Brodhurst had seen also Pound written request for a Court Martial
We have already established Brodhurst misquotes Colville both in substituting "rates" for "berates" . You even pointed out he chops a sentence in half without highlighting this.
Brodhurst quotes extensively from Pound's 19th June letter to Tovey but apparently forgets to quote, or provide citation for some other mystery communication you want to believe in, that allows him to say Pound "wrote" about a Court Martial threat.Then there is a second sentence that is referring to both PoW disengagement and Crete situation, for both Churchill was infuriated against Pound and Alexander regarding the Royal Navy attitude:
"He berated the First Lord and First Sea Lord continuously, both on this account and because in the Mediterranean, the navy shows, he thinks a tendency to shirk its task of preventing a seaborne landing in Crete since Cunningham fears severe losses from bombing."
Brodhurst is just like so many others including Tarrant lazily parroting what "everybody knows" without even bothering with whether it was a letter or as Tovey alleges, a phone call. The actual evidence including detailed references, quotes and citation dries up as soon as they start talking about the Court Martial myth because there is no serious evidence. Proper historical practice starts again once they are past it.
Now just play nice and you might get a present you want on "Hood Day"
All the best
wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"