The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:49 pm

wadinga wrote:
Mon Jun 11, 2018 8:14 pm
Hello Antonio,

Please stop ejecting Pillenwerfers and fire the damned G7es torpedo!

All the best

wadinga
Yes, we're getting a bit tired of A&A's sudden reliance on secondary sources.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:19 am

As we are fed up of D&S petulant denials of FACTS (not accepted) and PRIMARY SOURCES[/b] (considered "memories of poor old sailors") ! :lol:

In case someone has forgotten (or removed as being inconvenient :wink:) here the list of all the evidences already available for the threat (Pound May 28 letter full text and/or the "Silver Bullet") are not really needed.

Threat_Evidences.jpg
Threat_Evidences.jpg (81.43 KiB) Viewed 698 times

If someone still refuses to accept it, it's his own problem ONLY


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:37 am, edited 3 times in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Tue Jun 12, 2018 7:28 am

@Antonio

Connecting a 1944 wedding with a decoration in 1941 seems abstruse to me. It's so abstruse that one could think it's really a dead cat strategy. However, I know (or at least strongly believe) you are serious about that and therefore I don't want to impute that you are using red herrings to distract us from the gist of the matter.

So what about your silver bullet?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:18 pm

Hello Herr Nilsson,

I thought the Dead Cat Strategy was much more complex and philosophical to do with things like paradox like Schrödinger's cat. However I discover it is merely
There is one thing that is absolutely certain about throwing a dead cat on the dining room table – and I don’t mean that people will be outraged, alarmed, disgusted. That is true, but irrelevant. The key point is that everyone will shout, ‘Jeez, mate, there’s a dead cat on the table!’ In other words, they will be talking about the dead cat – the thing you want them to talk about – and they will not be talking about the issue that has been causing you so much grief.
However some rather pathetic "nudge, nudge say no more" innuendo that Wake-Walker's family had high society connections is not shocking and sensational enough to divert us from demanding that the "Silver Bullet" be deployed immediately. It is more like attempting to divert us with a cutesy video of a kitten playing with a ball of string. Irrelevant.


Alberto, You really need to learn the difference between facts and opinions. Here's a start from Wikipedia
In the study of history as an academic discipline, a primary source (also called original source or evidence) is an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study.

Those primary sources which exist: 31st May letter, War Cabinet minutes, 205/10 none mentions a Court Martial for Leach and Wake-Walker. The only document which does, Tovey's 1961 letter, is not a primary source at all because it is not a "source of information that was created at the time under study".

Barnes' answer is the inverse of evidence of a threat.

Why don't you encourage Antonio to make us "loosers" by deploying his ultimate weapon?

Come on, Antonio, stop reading the instructions, pull the pin and throw the Holy Hand Grenade of Antioch! :lol:


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 12, 2018 1:33 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Those primary sources which exist: 31st May letter, War Cabinet minutes, 205/10 none mentions a Court Martial for Leach and Wake-Walker."
that's why all serious historians used Tovey's 1961 letter, that explains in crystal clear terms what was in the "background" of the regrettable aftermath, being confirmed by ADM 205/10, by War Cabinet Minutes AND also by 1941 letter to Pound (as for sure a BofI into the conduct of an officer is NOT a rewarding initiative but the antechamber of a Court Martial :lol: ).... If not enough for Mr.Wadinga to trust Tovey, it's simply his problem..... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jun 12, 2018 2:58 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

I do not have anything personal against noble family high level relations, ... I just wanted to make it clear why after some less than average performances, ... RearAdm Wake-Walker was always escaping free of charge and ... getting promoted.

This always happened from the HMS Dragon collision on 1934, ... until the POST MORTEM promotion occurrence.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frederic_Wake-Walker

I like very much Alberto Virtuani summary of the PRIMARY evidence we have at hand :
Threat_Evidences.jpg
Threat_Evidences.jpg (81.32 KiB) Viewed 654 times

Those PRIMARY evidence should have been more than enough to any reasonable person to prove the " regrettable aftermath " ( S. Roskill ) , … apparently for some they are not enough to demonstrate what happened from May to September 1941 about this "Denmark Strait Saga" ( Sir H. Leach ).

Now we have found also a letter of September 15th, 1941 were Adm Tovey talked with Adm Pound about Wake-Walker need to " set a guard on his tongue ".

I think we agree that it is not regarding being generally speaking emphatic or sarcastic, ... but just being " very superficial " ( to say the least ) on his declarations, … just like Adm Tovey declaring the Bismarck being unsinkable to the RN battleship guns, ... for example.

Would you agree that we can only refer to the BBC interview and to the Hood First board " superficial " declarations on this regard ?

Do you have other evidence of RearAdm Wake-Walker speech performances where he needed to " set a guard to his tongue " released between May and September 1941 ?

Last but not least, ... the so called " Silver Bullet " will be released with my future book about the Bismarck.
Like it or not I will never disclose it before.

It is clear to me that no matter what document we will find and whatever it will state, ... the " hooligan/deniers " on this forum will never accept what has been already largely demonstrated referencing the document list above.

If someone does not find conclusive for the threat demonstration the May 31st, 1941 letter from Tovey to Pound, ... it is his problem.

If someone does not realize what Adm Tovey explained to Stephen Roskill later about that real threat occurred on full details, ... I do not know what else he thinks is needed to prove this event.

Hope you are not even thinking to try declare Adm Tovey being unreliable or suffering for memory failures when he was writing and visiting Stephen Roskill.
Am I right assuming this ?

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jun 12, 2018 4:48 pm

Hello Antonio,

Thank you for confirming you continue to follow the tactic you have used since the beginning

Last but not least, ... the so called " Silver Bullet " will be released with my future book about the Bismarck.
Like it or not I will never disclose it before.
withholding information to "win" an argument, rather than releasing it in the high-minded search for truth you claim to have been pursuing. The object of this forum as I understand it is the free dissemination of information, not its withholding for personal gain.

The two Tovey letters I have discovered and released show clearly there never was a Court Martial threat in 1941. The first specifically only talks of a Board of Inquiry and Tovey says emphatically that will not happen. Whatever motivation Pound had for requesting a Board of Inquiry he was so diffident about it, he immediately forgot about it. The second includes an effusive recommendation for Wake-Walker to be appointed as Pound's deputy, a proposal which could only be considered insane, if Pound had actually been trying to Court Martial him or believed his conduct so poor it required a real Board of Enquiry only 3 months before. Thus these two letters, written by Tovey in 1941, completely disprove his allegations made many years afterward to Roskill and McMullen.

You have never said whether you had seen these letters before I put them up on this website, but certainly in the case of the September 15th letter you quoted a misleading fragment from it before I did so. Since, to the best of my knowledge , neither of these letters have ever been referenced in any publication, this is interesting. One might conclude you have been withholding one at least, and maybe both for some time.

That which is held in public records can always be rediscovered and so my search for what you claim is a "Silver Bullet" begins in earnest. It is not your property to withhold and hide or sell or tease interested parties with. All those interested in the Denmark Straits battle and the career of the Bismarck deserve to have access to all the information available. I aim to display it here as soon as possible in order that your publication can be pre-judged, because it would appear to be planned to showcase this grotesque distortion of the truth you have developed.


All the best :wink:


wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:31 pm

Hello everybody,

Mr.Wadinga is really shameless in his statements.....
"The two Tovey letters I have discovered and released show clearly there never was a Court Martial threat in 1941....."
He "discovered" them, but the one from September 15 he was carefully keeping secret, withholding it (as Wake-Walker's tongue :lol: and his position in Pound's ranking :lol: was embarrassing for his stubborn defense of this militarily poor but well sponsored officer), until Antonio :clap: released its relevant content.....

I wrote: "all serious historians used Tovey's 1961 letter, that explains in crystal clear terms what was in the "background" of the regrettable aftermath, being confirmed by ADM 205/10, by War Cabinet Minutes AND also by 1941 letter to Pound (as for sure a BofI into the conduct of an officer is NOT a rewarding initiative, but the antechamber of a Court Martial)"

Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Tue Jun 12, 2018 5:46 pm

Hello All,
I aim to display it here as soon as possible in order that your publication can be pre-judged,

tick-tock, tick-tock, tick-tock :cool:

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:34 pm

Hello everybody,

while the clock runs, .... I wait for somebody to study base geometry and trigonometry, ... as he did not pass the examination lately, ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8231&p=76746#p76746

... since I recall having read he is searching for the truth, ... we wait the demonstration of this new attitude of him.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Tue Jun 12, 2018 9:21 pm

At one point, Antonio referred to his military career, e.g. he indicated that only officers like him are somewhat qualified to judge on this matter (or have a deep interest in "revealing the truth"). Also, his posting signature shows that he is very much anchored in the system of military ranks and formal procedures.That is fine.

However, given the insanity and duration of this email-thread, I'm starting to wonder if this attitude, e.g. spending endless effort on a non-existent case(*) using completely irrelevant and ridiculous arguments, is somewhat representative of the school of thought in the Italian Navy. If so, it could help explain the performance of the Regia Marina in WW2.

None-existent case (my view on it): After the DS battle, Churchill got tempered and in one of his emotional outbreaks, maybe used the expression "Court-martial them!". Two or three days later, Bismarck was sunk and everything was forgotten. People had more important things to do, e.g. fighting and winning a war. End of story.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:44 am

Hello everybody,

@ Northcape,

you wrote :
At one point, Antonio referred to his military career, e.g. he indicated that only officers like him are somewhat qualified to judge on this matter (or have a deep interest in "revealing the truth"). Also, his posting signature shows that he is very much anchored in the system of military ranks and formal procedures. That is fine.
Who as been an Officer in my personal opinion is a lot facilitated to understand the Military thought processes when it comes to discipline and the related codes application.
However, given the insanity and duration of this email-thread, I'm starting to wonder if this attitude, e.g. spending endless effort on a non-existent case(*) using completely irrelevant and ridiculous arguments, is somewhat representative of the school of thought in the Italian Navy. If so, it could help explain the performance of the Regia Marina in WW2.
I disagree about your first statement : " non existing case (*) ".
This case started with a letter on May 28th, 1941 ( we do not have yet but we have the reply to it from Adm Tovey to Adm Pound on the 31st of May 1941), requesting for sure ( probably more than that ) a Board of Inquiry into the conduct of 2 Royal Navy Officers, and ended with the King rewarding on October 14th, 1941 for the same 2 Royal Navy Officers. The Official documents are still available to demonstrate it.
We are just endlessly debating the details in between those 2 well proven main occurrences.

If you are interested on the Regia Marina events, just open a dedicated thread and we can talk about it, I have no problems even if Alberto Virtuani on this case is more informed than me having been an Officer in the Italian Navy, I have been an Officer in the Army.
None-existent case (my view on it) : After the DS battle, Churchill got tempered and in one of his emotional outbreaks, maybe used the expression "Court-martial them!". Two or three days later, Bismarck was sunk and everything was forgotten. People had more important things to do, e.g. fighting and winning a war. End of story.
I agree with your summary and that was basically it.
I arrived to this determination "bottom up" and not " top down " as you are putting it now, ... starting from some data and documents discrepancies I was mainly interested to understand and demonstrate being incorrect for historical reasons.
As for today state of the art here in this forum, there are still persons as you can read that refuse to accept that simple concept you wrote above being the cause of everything occurred after as logic consequence of it, ... and still are keeping on challenge what cannot be challenged anymore, ... given the available PRIMARY source references listed.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:13 am

Hello everybody,

refusing to accept the gross provocation about the Regia Marina and the implicit allusion to nationality (and nationalism) aspects (forbidden on this forum :stop: ), I wonder whether it is praised in any Navy that the Captain of a still efficient battleship (fact, as per Leach message) retreats in front of the enemy while engaged (leaving the enemy free to continue his mission) and that a flag officer commanding a still numerically superior force does not re-engage the same enemy (fact) even after having been "solicited" by his Admiralty..... :lol:

The case is well existing and ONLY the final sinking of Bismarck prevented the two officers from being Court Martialled, overcoming Churchill's, Pound's and Phillips' fully justified anger.
Had Bismarck survived (and possibly inflicted damages to British interests), not only Leach and W-W (plus Ellis) would have paid for their actions, but I guess Tovey himself would have been replaced as CinC HF, the very same day.
I find the pragmatic decision to exploit the success (instead of prosecuting) quite correct in wartime, but the real shame was the subsequent decoration for both these poor officers...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:41 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:13 am
Hello everybody,

refusing to accept the gross provocation about the Regia Marina and the implicit allusion to nationality (and nationalism) aspects (forbidden on this forum :stop: ), I wonder whether it is praised in any Navy that the Captain of a still efficient battleship (fact, as per Leach message) retreats in front of the enemy while engaged (leaving the enemy free to continue his mission) and that a flag officer commanding a still numerically superior force does not re-engage the same enemy (fact) even after having been "solicited" by his Admiralty..... :lol:

The case is well existing and ONLY the final sinking of Bismarck prevented the two officers to be Court Martialled, overcoming Churchill's, Pound's and Phillips' fully justified anger. Had Bismarck survived (and possibly inflicted damages to British interests), not only Leach and W-W (plus Ellis) would have paid for their actions, but I guess Tovey himself would have been replaced as CinC HF, the very same day.
I find the pragmatic decision to exploit the success (instead of prosecuting) quite correct in wartime, but the real shame was the subsequent decoration for both these poor officers...... :negative:


Bye, Alberto
Leach's still efficient battleship:

had lost 1 x 14in gun permanently and had subpar output from it's remaining main armament amounting to the effective loss of another gun.
had lost all it's radar systems
Had lost it's entire secondary armament due to HADT damage
had lost many of the command personnel from a hit on the compass platform
had suffered funnel and machinery damage from a 38cm hit
had suffered UW damage and flooding aft
was pitting 8 effective 14in guns against Lutjen's 8 x 38cm, 6 x 15cm, 8 x 10.5cm, 8 x 20.3cm and 6 x 10.5cm guns and hits from any of these guns could have knocked out her remaining 14in DCTs.
was rapidly closing the range and losing her immune zone from 38cm guns.
Had virtually no chance of stopping Bismarck and none whatsoever of stopping PE because she could not engage her.

So in fact Leach's battleship wasn't very efficient at all. Given these facts there was zero probability that a BofI would have found any fault in Leach's decisions.

A&A have expressed their hatred and loathing of Leach and IMHO their animus is directed against Leach because he refused to let Lutjens destroy his ship thus depriving Nazi Germany of another triumph and similarly their hatred of W-W is motivated by his steadfast and dogged devotion to duty which ultimately led to Bismarck's destruction.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:57 am

Hello Antonio,

... since I recall having read he is searching for the truth, ... we wait the demonstration of this new attitude of him.
I presented the two unredacted Tovey letters on this website to expose the truth, you withhold the "Silver Bullet" to hide even your distorted "truth" until you can monetize it.

You, as defamer of Wake-Walker and Leach have the onus to provide evidence, the defence need present it only when necessary. The paucity of evidence you have shown so far has convinced no-one, and since you are reduced to taking a phrase out of context from an unstinting paean of praise as your latest effort, having no new material of your own, your efforts are surely done.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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