The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

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dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:26 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 10:02 am

What count is that we can confirm that Capt Ellis own autobiography released declarations ( Churchill archives ) were all correct and his memory was fully reliable, as it was easy to realize also by reading what he wrote on the many arguments he mentioned.
Capt Ellis reliability is proven and the case is closed.

I'm glad that you now support Ellis' statement:

It snowed during the night, and the wind rose, About dawn it
cleared to the southeast and southward, and we could see-ice-blink
to the north and west, But we still could not see any other British
ship, The Norfolk was still miles out of sight and gunrange when
the Action between the Germans and the Hood and Prince of Wales
began
, Of our battleships we could see only the funnel tops and
the gun flashes.
(Ellis, Chap 19, p.11)
and have abandoned the triangle of doom theory. Which falls apart because Norfolk was not visible from Suffolk.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:33 am

Hello everybody,

Fritz Otto Busch on board the Prinz Eugen reported what Kpt Brinkmann was signalling to Adm Lutjens on board the Bismarck soon after 05:30 that morning.

We have all the cross bearings among the various ships and their evaluated distances at various stages on that time frame.

The fact that some were not in condition to see visually the others means nothing.

It is enough to use base geometry and trigonometry to solve the matter of where they were, based on their and the German data.

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8231&p=76746#p76746


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

northcape
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:46 pm

dunmunro wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 8:41 am


Leach's still efficient battleship:

had lost 1 x 14in gun permanently and had subpar output from it's remaining main armament amounting to the effective loss of another gun.
had lost all it's radar systems
Had lost it's entire secondary armament due to HADT damage
had lost many of the command personnel from a hit on the compass platform
had suffered funnel and machinery damage from a 38cm hit
had suffered UW damage and flooding aft
was pitting 8 effective 14in guns against Lutjen's 8 x 38cm, 6 x 15cm, 8 x 10.5cm, 8 x 20.3cm and 6 x 10.5cm guns and hits from any of these guns could have knocked out her remaining 14in DCTs.
was rapidly closing the range and losing her immune zone from 38cm guns.
Had virtually no chance of stopping Bismarck and none whatsoever of stopping PE because she could not engage her.

So in fact Leach's battleship wasn't very efficient at all. Given these facts there was zero probability that a BofI would have found any fault in Leach's decisions.
Most importantly, POW main armament was known (prior to the DS battle) not to work well (turret jams, loading jams). These "teething troubles" were also proven during the DS battle, and there is no indication that they would not occur again (quite the contrary). There was a reason why the civilian technicians were on board from the beginning.
To go into a battle with Bismarck would have very likely resulted in the destruction or severe damage of POW. If W-W or Leach would have done so and as a (very likely) result would be responsible for the loss of POW, then a Court Martial might be justified.
It was Churchill himself, who after the DS battle, gave orders that no KGV class ship would be allowed to attack Tirpitz alone (talking about attack, not about defending, e.g. a convoy). For sure that reasoning could only be based on the battles with Bismarck, and in hindsight, completely justify the decisions of W-W and Leach. In real life, any commander is foremost responsible for his crew and ships, and not to his personal reputation in history books or something abstract like "honour". In fact, honour is a luxury of peace time. During war and crisis, only the results count, and every commander must base his decisions on the likelyhood of success.
It is pitiful to watch people chasing a non-existent case, just by sitting in front of a computer and theoretizing with 75 years delay, despite all facts pointing in the opposite direction. In particular, since they make claims to "honour" all the time while coming up with ludicrous truth-twisters and omission of facts whenever convenient.

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:00 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Northcape,

the only pitiful thing I see here is the fact that many persons do not like to accept what has been declared by Adm Tovey , the C in C Home Fleet, directly involved into the Board of Inquiry/Court Martial request from Adm Pound, the First Sea Lord, confirmed by the Official Royal Navy WW2 Historian, namely : Stephen Roskill.

Basically all the major British most important historians confirmed this request occurrence, ... and only here in some " hooligan/deniers " are trying unsuccessfully to refute something that nobody will ever been able to refute being the historical truth well proven also by the still esisting Official documents into the various archives.

I will not comment the PoW damages anymore, there are dedicated threads about it where we analyzed in details the occurrences and the declarations, this is NOT the thread dedicated to this analysis.

I realized that for you and someone else it is a problem that after 75 years somebody was able to search more into this event and bring out all the supporting evidences about it from the beginning until the end of this " regrettable aftermath " that this " Denmark Strait Saga " was all about.

I am very sorry for you and all the other " deniers " but you better learn how to live with it from now on, because this is the truth.

Last but not least, ... the honor is something important in peace and mostly in war time, ... at least for a soldier and especially for an Officer.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Fri Jun 15, 2018 9:39 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:00 pm
Hello everybody,
...I see here is the fact that many persons do not like to accept what has been declared by Adm Tovey , the C in C Home Fleet, directly involved into the Board of Inquiry/Court Martial request from Adm Pound, the First Sea Lord, confirmed by the Official Royal Navy WW2 Historian, namely : Stephen Roskill...

Nothing Tovey or Roskill has wrtiten, nor anything presented in this forum, has confirmed a CM request. The information presented thus far indicates that Tovey's post war claims were a figment of his failing memory.

northcape
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:15 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 8:00 pm


I realized that for you and someone else it is a problem that after 75 years somebody was able to search more into this event and bring out all the supporting evidences about it from the beginning until the end of this " regrettable aftermath " that this " Denmark Strait Saga " was all about.
I can assure that this does not constitute a problem for me, since problems are something happening in the real world. In fact, I could not care less if Churchill or Pound vented and asked for a court martial at one day, or if they did not.
The thing is, that this "event" is incredibly irrelevant, but in order to make a case for it (why?), some people come up with the most ludicrous and ridiculous theories which in the end are simply 100% wrong (e.g. POW was fit for battle after DS battle, it was a wrong decision not to attack Bismarck with POW alone, weather reports are hidden messages, etc.). It is the typical course of a conspiracy theory, e.g. to support something silly one must come up with something even more silly.

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Algonquin-R17 » Sat Jun 16, 2018 2:26 am

Hello Antonio,

I have waited a long time to participate.

Would I be correct to assume that at this moment you are basing your belief that there was an official threat of a Court Martial on this ?
It works the other way around, because I do not need to prove that there was a Court Martial threat, since it is already proved by Adm Tovey letters.
In the opposite there is nothing I have seen so far proving he was not reliable, ... and in that case we can counter it with the Stephen Roskill additional confirmation in writing declaring Adm Tovey being fully reliable at that time written soon after Sir Kennedy released book, where Kennedy was mentioning the possibility that Adm Tovey may have been not fully reliable late on his life ( Paffard ).
Also here the case is closed.
As I read that it means Admiral Tovey wrote some letters many years later stating the threat, and when one author questions his reliability you dismiss that opinion, or cancel it out, because another author claims Admiral Tovey was reliable.

Therefore one cancels the other and basically, in the end we are left with just Admiral Tovey's letter?

Thank you,

Bob

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:26 am

Hello everybody,

@ Northcape,

I am glad to read that this " regrettable aftermath " occurrence does not constitute for you a problem, simply because it is the truth and the historical reality should never constitute a problem especially 75 years after.

Surely it is not this way for everybody here in .... as we can read.

The relevenace of this occurrence, as you might have realized on this forum, was for me the full understanding of the reasons why they have altered the documents after it, ... as I have arrived demonstrating this shame " bottom up " and not going " top down " digging on this fact for the pleasure of it.

This could have been considered a " novelist " theory by reading Sir Kennedy book Pursuit, and that was most likely the intent of it by adding the unfair reference to Adm Tovey late life memory failure( demonstratete being with no basis by S. Roskill ), and many as we can read like to still beleive on it.
But just digging a bit more on it and finding the proper references, … still thanking Stephen Roskill, ... and the Official documents into the archives, the bad smelling reality surfaced quite easily.

The fact that the son of Capt Leach, ... Sir Henry Leach that has been First Sea Lord too, ... confirmed this " Denmark Strait Saga " occurrence should have removed all doubts from everybody, ... apparently it did not as far as I can read.

Adm Tovey letters written soon after the occurrence ( May 1941 ) plus his post war declarations in writing to the Royal Navy Official Historian for World War 2, Stephen Roskill, provide the evidence of what happened, ... the ADM 205/10 documents are providing the confirmation at the highest level of what has been done after to " Cover Up " and resolve the case, ... enabling the King recognitions.

This is the truth and this is the shame of this story, not a " theory " anymore, ... but a list of facts well demonstrated by still available documents.

Now the reason why they altered the battle documents on the timings and the distances is clear, ... and everything comes back to the real facts and data we can still find and realize about this battle.

We all know that history is usually written by the winners, ... in this case they put too much " sugar coating " on it, ... as simple as that.


Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Jun 16, 2018 7:38 am

Antonio Bonomi wrote: "many persons do not like to accept what has been declared by Adm Tovey , the C in C Home Fleet, directly involved into the Board of Inquiry/Court Martial request from Adm Pound, the First Sea Lord, confirmed by the Official Royal Navy WW2 Historian, namely : Stephen Roskill."
Hi Antonio,
don't be surprised about that.
The same deniers, in the past, were happily accepting and even confirming the Court Martial threat (e.g. here http://www.hmshood.com/history/denmarks ... olland.htm :lol: ).

Their problem today is that you have demonstrated the real development of the Denmark Strait battle, the true distances of the heavy cruisers and the correct timing and sequence of the PoW hits and disengagement. You have outlined the blatant intentional alteration of declarations and official reports regarding these points.

Therefore, the Court Martial threat constitutes, by now, the evident "motive" for these false statements and this cannot be accepted by the deniers, because these alterations demonstrate that even the ones involved (Leach, Wake-Walker, Ellis PLUS Tovey) were well aware that the military behavior some of them showed during the operation was clearly far from being in line with the Articles of War (Naval Discipline Act) and they were thus forced to alter the account of their actions to justify what they had done.


Regarding the "honor", I will not enter a discussion with "war-gamers" who believe an officer is a technocrat and a statistic expert, who takes vital decisions based on probability.... I just prefer to outline my signature (from Adm.Cunningham), or Mr.Wadinga one (from Adm.Beatty), showing that this kind of attitude with honor in mind and against odds can "justify" a statue in Trafalgar square, under the eyes of Nelson, in any time.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sat Jun 16, 2018 9:48 am

Hello Alberto,

It is apparent that neither you nor Antonio understand the difference between confirm and merely repeat


Confirm requires corroboration from a different source, say the mysterious "Silver Bullet" (if it actually exists) in this particular case, whereas anybody who like myself, is guilty of merely repeating the Court Martial myth, has up to now been prepared to accept the opinion of others. The new evidence presented during last few months, makes it clear, as Dunmunro has pointed out and Northcape recognises, there never was a Court Martial threat and those authors referring to it have perpetuated a myth.

Roskill does not confirm the myth, because he offers no corroborating evidence, and in fact references Kennedy not Tovey's letter and accepts the changes to Tovey's story that Kennedy institutes. The threat happening much later after some kind of study etc.

Roskill's hearsay evidence gathered from 205/10 does not mention a Court Martial, and Alexander's alleged "thorough investigation" mentioned in it, has left no evidence it ever actually occurred. The War Cabinet minutes make no reference to any kind of disciplinary action.

All the subsequent authorities who have repeated the myth, Tarrant, Rhys-Jones etc should have qualified it as alleged, because it was only ever an allegation by the late-life Tovey, because there was no confirmation. The 1941 Tovey letters I have shown contradict Tovey's allegation of later in life, and expose the falsehoods, perhaps unintentional, involved.

It is particularly disappointing that Brodhurst and Wills, as the biographers of the men respectively accused of making the unwarranted threat and of one of the victims apparently put no effort at all into investigating CMDS.

The assembling of a few irrelevant and inconsequential, and perfectly normal, inconsistencies in subsequent accounts and the biased opinions of a couple of opportunists based on "intuition" who wish to make money and reputation out of defaming these officers and in general the RN senior officers of 1941, by means of a Conspiracy Theory, is extremely reprehensible. Bill Jurens, hugely experienced in these matters, has pointed out the shortcomings of Antonio's techniques when attempting to distort the accounts and cartography to serve his purposes.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sat Jun 16, 2018 10:08 am

Hello everybody,

Q.E.D.
The deniers cannot accept anymore the clear threat (CM and/or BofI) as it is an evident motive for the proven cover-up. :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Jun 16, 2018 11:09 am

Hello everybody,

it is ridicolous to read that a series of organized intentional Official report alterations and modifications ( PoW retreat conditions and time ), ... a call of a Hood Second Board in order to change a previously released declaration by a Flag Officer that should have " set a guard to his tongue " ( heavy cruiser distance from the enemy during the engagement on going ), ... and a released Official dispatches by the C in C Home Fleet filled up with intentional lies ( supporting both intentional data alteration ), ... for somebody can/has became :
... the assembling of a few irrelevant and inconsequential, and perfectly normal, inconsistencies in subsequent accounts ...


Which of curse have been the ONLY version of the facts ( of course intentionally FALSE ) that the Royal Navy Admiralty has accepted and has been the final version that had enabled the King recognitions.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by northcape » Sat Jun 16, 2018 8:20 pm

My fellow deniers,

May I make the suggestion to let this ridiculous topic rest once for all, simply by not reacting anymore.
Let the private investigators have their theory, and let them be happy by having the last posts, repeating their claims how often they like to.
It is simply useless to discuss with convinced conspiracy theorists. They are so much caught in their own world and not responsive to logic at all - you need to be like this otherwise you cannot support a conspiracy theory. This is not meant to be offensive, but a simple observation of modern age internet communication.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Sun Jun 17, 2018 7:17 am

Hello everybody,
northcape wrote: "My fellow deniers, May I make the suggestion to let this ridiculous topic rest once for all, simply by not reacting anymore."
the same wise suggestion had been already made twice by a far more fair, credible and "neutral" person here (Paul Mercer :clap: ), but it was always refused by the deniers, in their exalted "crusade" to save the "sacred cow" (the "official" false version that has been sold for 75 years....).

The evidences (ADM 205/10, 178/322 + War Cabinet Minutes) and the declarations of Churchill ("Troubridge comparison"), Alexander ("very full discussions"), Pound (May 26 speech), Barnes (despatches acceptance), Tovey (despatches, letters from 1941 till 1962), Wake-Walker (IWM interview, 1st and 2nd board declarations, final report), Leach (messages and report) and Ellis (report and autobiography) + the serious historians (Roskill, Correlli-Barnett, Rhys-Jones, Brodhurst) and Sir Henry Leach interpretation of the Court Martial threat are in this very thread, available for everybody to be read and (possibly and willingly...) understood.
The consequence of it, the "cover-up" has been proven here (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=6799) .


Let's hope this suggestion will be accepted by the other "RN hooligans", but I doubt they will be able to shut up and cease their absurd and unfounded defense of a couple of clearly timid officers "saved" for convenience by the mere result of Bismarck final sinking..... :think:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

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wadinga
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Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sun Jun 17, 2018 2:19 pm

Hello Northcape,


What was true two months ago is still true.
Unfortunately, I personally cannot just leave a situation where a fabricated story of cowardice, deception and falsehood is even considered to have equivalency to reality. This is not a debate between two reasonable opinions where they are equally reasonable interpretations of known facts. It is a determined and carefully planned attempt to present false information in the form of a Conspiracy Theory clouding the reality. If anybody is bored with it, they do not have to read it or continue to contribute. There are plenty of other threads. We are lucky the website owner indulges this debate, and has done for some time. He has provided the vital medium through which much material of real value has been presented as well as, sadly, a vast amount of hokum.
Since then I have made available the September 19th Tovey letter, in which Wake-Walker is seriously presented to work with Pound as his understudy, showing that not only was there no Court Martial threat, but Tovey knew that even the Board of Inquiry proposal was not made with any belief that there was a case to answer. It would have been a waste of ink to put W-W forward for the role, if such things had actually occurred. As we know Wake-Walker was marked for evenhigher promotion and a more responsible task by Pound himself.

In response to this sharing of pertinent genuine information, made in the spirit of the forum, Antonio has gleefully announced:
Last but not least, ... the so called " Silver Bullet " will be released with my future book about the Bismarck.
Like it or not I will never disclose it before.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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