Ar-196 artillery spotting?

[SK]

Hi,

Did German used anytime their Arado Ar 196 (or another planes) plane than artillery spotting role(especially on Bismarck)? If yes, please tell me about this.

I think, that didn´t used their plane than in this role. Am I mistake?

Thanks

SK

[RF]

The Arado's were used for spotting the fall of shot for Bismarck in practice gunnery shoots in the Baltic.

They were not used on Rheinubung. After the DS battle the catapults on Bismarck were inoperative due to battle damage.

[SK]

The Arado's were used for spotting the fall of shot for Bismarck in practice gunnery shoots in the Baltic.

They were not used on Rheinubung. After the DS battle the catapults on Bismarck were inoperative due to battle damage.

Thanks,

Have you some details of Baltics practise? And whats another German ships? Did any German ships used their planes in real combat to artillery spotting or they used planes only for recoinnassance, patrol etc. role?

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

I am not sure, if spotter planes were used during Bismarck's limited gunnery testing and practice in the Baltic. The war diary and the artillery testing report do not mention the use of an Arado or shore-based aircraft spotter even once. It seems that every launching and recovery of the Arados, as recorded in the Tirpitz diary, would always be carefully noted.

[RF]

I am not sure, if spotter planes were used during Bismarck's limited gunnery testing and practice in the Baltic. The war diary and the artillery testing report do not mention the use of an Arado or shore-based aircraft spotter even once. It seems that every launching and recovery of the Arados, as recorded in the Tirpitz diary, would always be carefully noted.

According to Ludovic Kennedy in his book on Bismarck the Arado's were used for artillery spotting, although he does not mention specific dates that can be cross-checked with the war diary.

[RF]

The Arado's were used for spotting the fall of shot for Bismarck in practice gunnery shoots in the Baltic.

They were not used on Rheinubung. After the DS battle the catapults on Bismarck were inoperative due to battle damage.

Thanks,

Have you some details of Baltics practise? And whats another German ships? Did any German ships used their planes in real combat to artillery spotting or they used planes only for recoinnassance, patrol etc. role?

Baltic practice - see my post above.

I'm not aware of artillery spotting by Arado's being done in combat conditions, the situation never seemed to arise.

Arado's were however used in an offensive capacity to attack merchant ships whilst the host ship was still out of artillery range. This involved strafing the merchantmens' decks, using an anchor or hook to tear down wireless aerials to stop raider reports being transmitted, and the dropping of stop orders to merchantmen. These tactics were used by the hilfskreuzer, principally Atlantis, Thor and Pinguin.
During Operation Berlin Scharnhorst's Arado did a similar operation on a merchant ship and Admiral Lutjens sharply criticised Captain Hoffmann for using the plane in that way.

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao all,

during Operation Sportpalast on March 1942, Tirpitz commander Kpt zur See Karl Topp also used the Arado 196 as ''fighters''.

Been under HMS Victorious Albacore torpedo bomber ( 12 ) attack, he decided to launch the ship planes while waiting for the ME 109 to come ( they never arrived in time ) and drive his ship into a very narrow passage ( the Moskenestraumen ) to save Tirpitz into Narvik.

As far as I remember the 2 Arado launched shot down 1 of the attacking planes ( total loss was 2 Albacores, plus some damaged ).

Tirpitz received no torpedoes and safely reached Narvik.

Just for the record Italians used Reggiane Re-2003 fighters on board just for this pourpose, to fight the torpedo bombers and than land safely in Italy airport.
Each Vittorio Veneto class battleship received a fighter on board.

Ciao Antonio

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

during Operation Sportpalast on March 1942, Tirpitz commander Kpt zur See Karl Topp also used the Arado 196 as ''fighters''.

Antonio is right. Take a look at the Tirpitz war diary on this site. Topp used the Arados quite extensively for tight security in the air and in ASW, and had them serviced and refueld at the marine base at Trondheim. It does not appear that their use was very effective. I think he also used them as spotters during artillery practice. http://kbismarck.com/archives/index.html

[RF]

Were Tirpitz's planes ineffective due to their small number or because the plane was not really designed for that role?

[RF]

Just for the record Italians used Reggiane Re-2003 fighters on board just for this pourpose, to fight the torpedo bombers and than land safely in Italy airport.
Each Vittorio Veneto class battleship received a fighter on board.

Ciao Antonio :D

Did the Italian planes have any success in this regard?

[Antonio Bonomi]

Ciao RF and all,

well, 2 Arado 196 against 12 Albacores and they shot down 1 of them damaging and disturbing several others, I do not think you can define that been ineffective in that particular case, some effect was reached.

The Albacore was armed with 3 Vickers 7,7 mm machine guns, the Arado with 2 by 7,9 mm machine guns, speed was comparable.

The Arado was not surely a fighter, but mainly a reconneissance plane.

No, I am not aware of any success of the Reggiane 2003 against attacking British Torpedo bombers.

But you must keep into account that at Matapan the Vittorio Veneto was not equipped with those planes as they were imbarked later in the war when very few actions occurred and probably the ships were air covered already.

A very smart and good idea anyhow.


Think about Bismarck having similar chances with the Arado utilization or having fighters on board during the Ark Royal Swordfish attack.
Probably those very slow planes were going to face huge problems to take her tail and hit the propellers area.

Ciao Antonio

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

Were Tirpitz's planes ineffective due to their small number or because the plane was not really designed for that role?

The ship-borne Arado was really only a patrol/recon float plane; however, even the FW 190, that was faster and more agile than the Spitfire, did not score very often as far as I know.

http://www.feldgrau.com/ar196.htm
http://www.mikekemble.com/ww2/spitfire.html
http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/VBv190.htm

[Bgile]

Ciao RF and all,

Think about Bismarck having similar chances with the Arado utilization or having fighters on board during the Ark Royal Swordfish attack.
Probably those very slow planes were going to face huge problems to take her tail and hit the propellers area.

Ciao Antonio

Well, since Bismarck's catapault was out of action that would seem unlikely.

Also, I don't believe torpedo planes aim at any particular place on a ship. They just try to get a hit. Because of target maneuvering to avoid torpedoes, it's probably more likely to hit bow or stern, and if the stern is hit its probably quite likely that the rudder is hard over when it does.

There were merchant ships equipped with catapaults to launch hurricane fighters. The fighter would attempt to shoot down attacking German aircraft and then ditch, hoping to be picked up.

[Ulrich Rudofsky]

It is of interest that the BISMARCK's Arados could have carried 50 kg bombs. According to the ammunition inventory of February 1941, 40 ea. SC50, 40 ea. SD50, and 54 ea. LC50F could be accommodated on the ship and that amount was ordered to be put on board. Their location is shown here:
http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b138/ ... ion11A.jpg


[Schlachtschiff "Bismarck" - Artillerie-Munition Übersicht 1.2.1941]


http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Waffen/Bomben-R.htm

[RF]

The Arado was not surely a fighter, but mainly a reconneissance plane.


Think about Bismarck having similar chances with the Arado utilization or having fighters on board during the Ark Royal Swordfish attack.
Probably those very slow planes were going to face huge problems to take her tail and hit the propellers area.

Ciao Antonio :D

This is why Graf Zeppelin would have made a huge difference if she had been accompanying Bismarck on Rheinubung. Having your own shipboard aircraft is no substitute for an aircraft carrier equipped with fighter aircraft, not to mention its own flak armament and ability to strike back at single carriers such as Victorious or Ark Royal.