The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.

Moderator: Bill Jurens

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Jan 25, 2018 11:32 am

Hi Duncan,
I have to respect your opinion, that is clearly different from Roskill's one.
I suggest you to write your own publication questioning his conclusions and underlining his mistakes interpreting the story of the Royal Navy in WWII, including the Court Martial, while Antonio (with my contribution, I hope) will write his own publications, showing to everybody not only the true story of the battle of Denmark Strait, but also the subsequent "sugar-coating" of the official version/reports and the "motive" of the alteration, the Court Martial threat, as it was interpreted by Roskill.

I wish you good luck for your work.


you wrote: "Tovey's allegations about a thwarted CMDS have not been proven by the information presented here"
I'm afraid that the followings:
  • 1) Tovey's letters AND visits to Roskill, in which he dilated at length on the story, and that allowed the latter to publish it in two different books,
    2) Tovey confirmation to McMullen and Blake (reported consistently with his letter),
    3) Roskill confirmation about Tovey reliability and his interpretation of the CM as linked to ADM 205/10 papers (confirmed by all historian after him),
    4)ADM 205/10 papers mentioning the Tovey's despatches and Barnes's acceptance to them from the Admiralty,
    5) Sir Henry Leach identical way of reading Tovey's recollections and ADM 205/10 papers, when clarifying the charges against his father and against Wake_Walker,
    6) finally, I'm sure (as I have already said) that there are other evidences of what was said between Pound and Tovey re. the CM. I encourage everybody to look into the various British archives and find them, as we have done with the above ones. Good luck, I will congratulate whoever will be able to find at least one (that we have already in our hands, ready for the publication) or any new one.
are more than enough for Antonio and me to publish our conclusions about this regrettable aftermath, adding and linking to them the intentional alteration of the reports (as clearly demonstrated on this forum) done to counter the menace of a CM and to "explain" the "certain aspects" that required a very careful investigation.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3626
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Fri Jan 26, 2018 12:01 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:


you wrote: "Tovey's allegations about a thwarted CMDS have not been proven by the information presented here"
I'm afraid that the followings:
  • 1) Tovey's letters AND visits to Roskill, in which he dilated at length on the story, and that allowed the latter to publish it in two different books,
    2) Tovey confirmation to McMullen and Blake (reported consistently with his letter),
    3) Roskill confirmation about Tovey reliability and his interpretation of the CM as linked to ADM 205/10 papers (confirmed by all historian after him),
    4)ADM 205/10 papers mentioning the Tovey's despatches and Barnes's acceptance to them from the Admiralty,
    5) Sir Henry Leach identical way of reading Tovey's recollections and ADM 205/10 papers, when clarifying the charges against his father and against Wake_Walker,
    6) finally, I'm sure (as I have already said) that there are other evidences of what was said between Pound and Tovey re. the CM. I encourage everybody to look into the various British archives and find them, as we have done with the above ones. Good luck, I will congratulate whoever will be able to find at least one (that we have already in our hands, ready for the publication) or any new one.
are more than enough for Antonio and me to publish our conclusions about this regrettable aftermath, adding and linking to them the intentional alteration of the reports (as clearly demonstrated on this forum) done to counter the menace of a CM and to "explain" the "certain aspects" that required a very careful investigation.


Bye, Alberto
The above might be sufficient for a publisher looking for a salacious story, but since all roads lead back to Tovey's letters I am sorry to say that your entire theory hangs on the thinnest of threads, and the more you parade your supporting material the more painfully obvious this becomes.

On the one hand you tout Tovey as a paragon of truth via his letters and in the same breath accuse him of criminal misconduct via "intentional alteration of the reports". Surely you must see the contradiction in terms that this implies?

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Jan 26, 2018 8:51 am

Hi Duncan,
again I respect your personal opinion on the CMDS evidences, despite more authoritative opinions being against you, but they are there and they will allow anybody to realize what happened. To quickly answer your question, Tovey was not "stoned" (but, very smartly, he intentionally altered facts in his report to cover his subordinates).

However, the one mentioned in point 6) below is NOT related to Tovey recollection in any way ! We have it already and, being a totally different input from another source , it will close once forever this denial nonsense.
I invite you (as well as Sean) to try to find it and to gain my congratulations (also for being fair, publishing it and thus admitting you were wrong since the beginning on this "regrettable aftermath"). It's available in a British repository....
Evidences_CMDS.jpg
Evidences_CMDS.jpg (126.06 KiB) Viewed 356 times
In the meantime, points 1) to 5) will suffice. :wink: .


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:08 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

point 6 is the " Silver Bullet " that will kill any " denier " definitively.

Now the truth cannot be hidden anymore in any way, .... it has been hidden for 77 years, ... and I think it has been long enough.

Mission accomplished my friend ... :clap:


Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
wadinga
Senior Member
Posts: 1607
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 3:49 pm
Location: Tonbridge England

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by wadinga » Sun Jan 28, 2018 7:49 pm

Hello Antonio,

Outstanding .......those hiding the evidence say
Now the truth cannot be hidden anymore in any way,
I was planning another visit to Kew.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sun Jan 28, 2018 8:16 pm

Hello everybody,

plenty of evidences already made available :

1) Tovey's letters AND visits to Roskill, in which he dilated at length on the story, and that allowed the latter to publish it in two different books,

2) Tovey confirmation to McMullen and Blake (reported consistently with his letter),

3) Roskill confirmation about Tovey reliability and his interpretation of the CM as linked to ADM 205/10 papers (confirmed by all historian after him),

4)ADM 205/10 papers mentioning the Tovey's despatches and Barnes's acceptance to them from the Admiralty,

5) Sir Henry Leach identical way of reading Tovey's recollections and ADM 205/10 papers, when clarifying the charges against his father and against Wake_Walker,

It was enough to read.

Bye Antonio :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3626
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Mon Jan 29, 2018 7:20 pm

Antonio Bonomi wrote:Hello everybody,

plenty of evidences already made available :

1) Tovey's letters AND visits to Roskill, in which he dilated at length on the story, and that allowed the latter to publish it in two different books,

2) Tovey confirmation to McMullen and Blake (reported consistently with his letter),

3) Roskill confirmation about Tovey reliability and his interpretation of the CM as linked to ADM 205/10 papers (confirmed by all historian after him),

4)ADM 205/10 papers mentioning the Tovey's despatches and Barnes's acceptance to them from the Admiralty,

5) Sir Henry Leach identical way of reading Tovey's recollections and ADM 205/10 papers, when clarifying the charges against his father and against Wake_Walker,

It was enough to read.

Bye Antonio :D
And yet...all roads still lead back to Tovey.

User avatar
Antonio Bonomi
Senior Member
Posts: 3704
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 10:44 am
Location: Vimercate ( Milano ) - Italy

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Mon Jan 29, 2018 8:40 pm

Hello everybody,
6 ) FINALLY,

I'm sure ( as I have already said ) that there are other evidences of what was said between Pound and Tovey ref. the Court Martial.

I encourage everybody to look into the various British archives and find them, as we have done with the above ones.

Good luck, I will congratulate whoever will be able to find at least one ( that we have already in our hands, ready for the publication ) or any new one.
Bye, bye " deniers " of this forum, ... it has not been a pleasure, ... but now it's over, ... FINALLY !


Bye, bye, ... Antonio ... :D
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

User avatar
Herr Nilsson
Senior Member
Posts: 1278
Joined: Thu Oct 21, 2004 11:19 am
Location: Germany

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Herr Nilsson » Thu Feb 01, 2018 9:11 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Wadinga wrote: "Did this happen?"
Hi Sean,
sure, I concede this happened, at least according to Duncan's list of messages (however this signal is missing in Norfolk message extract, appendix 1 to Wake-Walker report from June 5th and the message is not addressed to CS1, it looks like an encouragement message for the crews)....
Just for the record:

Admirable.jpg
Admirable.jpg (17.51 KiB) Viewed 255 times
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 679
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by paul.mercer » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:11 am

Gentlemen,
Another question I'm afraid!
Why would they want to Court Martial Captain Leach, surely he was under the command of Admiral Wake-Walker and had to do as he was ordered even if he disagreed with it?

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:28 am

Paul Mercer wrote: "Why would they want to Court Martial Captain Leach, surely he was under the command of Admiral Wake-Walker.....?"
Hi Paul,
absolutely correct.

In his analysis Roskill linked two different "aspects" that needed "explanations" using (correctly IMO, not for other people here) the papers in ADM 205/10, despite Tovey's letter explicitely mentions only the failure to re-engage.
Roskill_Churchill_Admirals_pages_125_126.jpg
Roskill_Churchill_Admirals_pages_125_126.jpg (124.86 KiB) Viewed 249 times
The key document is pag.332 of ADM 205/10, addressed by the First Sea Lord to the First Lord in which both "aspects" are mentioned in the quoted Barnes' answer to Tovey despatches. Sir Henry Leach too correctly interpreted the Court Martial for the 2 officers as linked to two different accusations (see Wills book "In the Highest Traditions of the RN", the biography of Capt.Leach).
ADM205-10_332-1.jpg
ADM205-10_332-1.jpg (101.63 KiB) Viewed 249 times
Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3626
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:39 am

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Paul Mercer wrote: "Why would they want to Court Martial Captain Leach, surely he was under the command of Admiral Wake-Walker.....?"
Hi Paul,
absolutely correct.

In his analysis Roskill linked two different "aspects" that needed "explanations" using (correctly IMO, not for other people here) the papers in ADM 205/10, despite Tovey's letter explicitely mentions only the failure to re-engage.
Roskill_Churchill_Admirals_pages_125_126.jpg
The key document is pag.332 of ADM 205/10, addressed by the First Sea Lord to the First Lord in which both "aspects" are mentioned in the quoted Barnes' answer to Tovey despatches. Sir Henry Leach too correctly interpreted the Court Martial for the 2 officers as linked to two different accusations (see Wills book "In the Highest Traditions of the RN", the biography of Capt.Leach).
ADM205-10_332-1.jpg
Bye, Alberto
What's the date of the letter?

In your opinion is a "thorough investigation" likely to be just a quick read of Tovey's despatch without the accompanying reports?

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Feb 01, 2018 10:55 am

Hi Duncan,
the letter we have is from 1961. From 1950 till 1960, Tovey came to see Roskill and discussed about the Bismarck Operation with him.

The thorough investigation was based on Tovey despatches (it's written in Barnes' answer....see above). How accurate it was, we cannot say, but the conclusions were based on Tovey despatches.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

dunmunro
Senior Member
Posts: 3626
Joined: Sat Oct 22, 2005 1:25 am
Location: Langley BC Canada

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by dunmunro » Thu Feb 01, 2018 4:50 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:Hi Duncan,
the letter we have is from 1961. From 1950 till 1960, Tovey came to see Roskill and discussed about the Bismarck Operation with him.

The thorough investigation was based on Tovey despatches (it's written in Barnes' answer....see above). How accurate it was, we cannot say, but the conclusions were based on Tovey despatches.


Bye, Alberto
Sorry, I meant what was the date of the report that you underlined in red?

User avatar
Alberto Virtuani
Senior Member
Posts: 2770
Joined: Mon Jul 08, 2013 8:22 am
Location: Milan (Italy)

Re: The Court Martial for the Denmark Strait

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Feb 01, 2018 5:36 pm

Hi Duncan,
ADM 205/10 pag.332 is dated 19th September, 1941.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

Post Reply