Hits on PoW and Bismarck

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:53 pm

Hello everybody,

to be defined troll by a troll, ... is a great pleasure.

The demonstration and the technical details of what you are trying to state please, .... a simple drawing will be enough.

Please show us the Bismarck course in that moment when the PoW shell entered her bow and which compartments have been damaged by the shell path.

It is you that are making yourself ridicolous because of your poor competences together with your endless willigness to unsuccesfully try to discredit others work at any cost.

You are doing it even at the cost to become more and more ridicolous and unreliable as it shows, … so, … be my guest, … it is your turn now to show your evidence, ... please impress us with your " fantasies " and creativity.

I wait the drawing now, ...

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:30 pm

Hello Antonio,


Since this is Bill Jurens' description I expect we shall have to wait until his book comes out. :D BTW Why anybody would waste their money on promised offerings from any other authors, especially if they pollute factual information with flakey Conspiracy Theories, I can't imagine.
Close examinations of the ship's plans coupled with a reading of written and oral descriptions suggest that the projectile approached at a relative angle of about 250 degrees, i.e. from about 20 degrees aft of the port beam.
Your instantaneous blather response about deflections exposed that you know very well that if Bismarck had been on 220T and PoW's shell came in on 334T or similar, the hit would have come in from before the beam. It didn't because Bismarck had turned away, to starboard, before 06:00 just as the Baron, Schmalenbach and Brennecke have shown. Putting it in a speculative plan or drawing doesn't change this.

If you want deny the David Mearns' photographs show the PoW hit, and you don't believe Bill Jurens' opinion based on the evidence he has seen, fine. There was never any intention to try and change your mind. You are beyond help.


IMHO David Mearns' imaginative creation of a forward Hood explosion does not impact on his identification of the bow hit. The lateral displacement of Hood's Conning Tower is perhaps more easily explained when one thinks about how far Titanic's hull appears to have "flown" laterally during its "fall" to the oceanic seabed. Hydrodynamic forces on rotating cylinders can do strange things.

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 12, 2018 4:51 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "If the documentary evidence is good enough for Bill Jurens, and the photograph good enough for David Mearns...."
Show us this "documentary evidence" and "photographs", please...I don't want to pay a pizza to Antonio only because Mr.Wadinga was so dumb to blindly trust a statement that was giving him a remote hope to be able to counter Bismarck track until Hood explosion, as reconstructed from PoW salvo plot by Antonio. :lol: :lol: :lol:

What a hooligan, trusting everything without having any proof himself ONLY because it looks like it can support his theory against IRREFUTABLE facts.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:05 pm

Hello everybody,

I will take care of what Bill Jurens book will state and the related evidence supporting it contained on his book when the book will become available.

Meanwhile I take care about what you are trying to state and as it clearly shows you have nothing supporting your " hypothesis " and very little knowledge of what you are talking about too, … not a surprise from my side to realize it of course.

But you are more than willing, … as I knew, ... without even knowing what Bill Jurens may have on his hands, ... to jump on the wagon and start your usual pathetic music as we can read.

There is an evident risk on doing this, … as it is obvious, ... and it is that you are putting your destiny in the hands of somebody else, ... and not in condition anymore to support yourself what you are trying to state.

I understand that given last results you obtained it is probably better doing that from your desperate side, ... but you have a real suicidal attitude doing it against me on those arguments.

I know very well all the possible situations both on course 220° as well as on course 270° by the Bismarck, ... and I know the Bismarck too, ... as well as I know the written documents and witness accounts written on books, … and I saw the wreck photos of the Bismarck bow.

Do you know all those data ? I sincerely doubt ... you just trust blindly Bill Jurens statement, ... and what Jose Rico explained above.

Not enough, ... you need to study better the data and come back with your own statements, data and a drawing explaining us what happened, ... supported by the photos of course.

I can anticipate you that of course I know everything in full details, ... so do your homework as best as you can, ... even if you know already the final answer, ... study and learn your lesson well, ... so you will avoid next time to repeat once again your usual errors.

Lets start teaching you something, … do you know where this false white wave on the bow is precisely located on the Bismarck on starboard side ?
Which compartiment is it ? Precisely … please, … precisely, … :!:

Treffer_1_exit_stb_David_Mearns.jpg
Treffer_1_exit_stb_David_Mearns.jpg (55.62 KiB) Viewed 382 times

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:11 pm

Hello Alberto,

Esteemed website owner Jose Rico showed us where the photos are:
In the following link we can see that the entry and exit holes, port and starboard, are both over the false white waves:

Unlike you I would blindly trust a statement from Bill Jurens, but mot a single word from Antonio any more who is becoming more Messianic by the moment
you just trust blindly Bill Jurens statement, ... and what Jose Rico explained above..
I can anticipate you that of course I know everything in full details,

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:31 pm

Hello everybody,

you have to thank Alecsandros that understood well that despite all I have a great patience, … and do not like to be really bad against anybody.

Even against you despite your stubborn and useless intention to hurt yourself while trying desperately to hurt me and my works.

YES, it must be something " messianic " ... of course, ... but I am only human, … unfortunately, … :D

I repeat to you my question :

do you know the compartments of the Bismarck and where that false white wave is on her bow on the starboard side ?

Are you able to read the roman numbers on a drawing ?

BS_stb_Treffer_1_01.jpg
BS_stb_Treffer_1_01.jpg (42.39 KiB) Viewed 379 times

On which compartment it is and from where, ... referencing the David Mearns photo, ... that shell come out on the starboard side of the Bismarck, ... from which compartment ?

It is not a difficult answer for you now, … I even put the shell in BLUE on the drawing.

I wait your answer, ... in writing from you now.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Bill Jurens » Fri Oct 12, 2018 5:39 pm

I should perhaps clarify things somewhat. There are so many various and sundry holes in Bismarck's bow that it is extremely difficult -- in my opinion practically impossible -- to correlate any pair, one to port and one to starboard, as being caused by the same projectile, etc. There was, and remains, at least amongst some, an almost pathological need to try to identify THE hole (or holes) that actually resulted from the bow hit, but the degree to which repairs may have been made before Bismarck sank -- and these repairs or attempted repairs are very poorly documented -- renders most identifications (and there are a number of holes to choose from) tentative at best. One can pick and choose, but so far as evidence is concerned, it's basically an imaginative exercise. A Rorshach test written in rustsicles...

A few threads ago, someone suggested that the conning tower planed away from the main wreckage, thus explaining the separation. At least in my opinion, this is unlikely, and it's probable that the turrets and conning tower went more-or-less straight down after detaching from the hull. When this event -- or sequence of events -- actually occurred is conjectural at best, but it's probable that it occurred quite close to the surface. If this interpretation is correct, t was not that the conning tower planed away from the wreckage as much as the wreckage -- i.e. the major hull segment extending from the bridge area back to the engineering spaces -- planed away from the conning tower, etc. instead. The mapping of the debris-field in 2001 -- and the maps made therefrom -- was somewhat conjectural, so (at least to me) the precise relationship of the conning tower to the rest of the wreckage remains somewhat conjectural as well. Hood's wreck was visited again several times after the well-known 2001 ITN expedition, in order to recover the ship's bell, but I do not know if any significant additional debris-field mapping was accomplished at that time. If any was done, I have not seen it.

Bill Jurens.

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 12, 2018 6:16 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "I would blindly trust a statement from Bill Jurens, but mot a single word from Antonio any more"
His choice, everyone can choose his Messiah, following blindly what he says, without understanding anything himself. :negative:


I'm waiting the "evidences" demonstrating the shell came from aft the beam, to avoid to pay a pizza to Antonio.
Please help me to save my money and post them BEFORE Antonio will finish his demonstration ! :lol: :lol: :lol:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 7:15 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Bill Jurens,

you wrote :
I should perhaps clarify things somewhat. There are so many various and sundry holes in Bismarck's bow that it is extremely difficult -- in my opinion practically impossible -- to correlate any pair, one to port and one to starboard, as being caused by the same projectile, etc. There was, and remains, at least amongst some, an almost pathological need to try to identify THE hole (or holes) that actually resulted from the bow hit, but the degree to which repairs may have been made before Bismarck sank -- and these repairs or attempted repairs are very poorly documented -- renders most identifications (and there are a number of holes to choose from) tentative at best. One can pick and choose, but so far as evidence is concerned, it's basically an imaginative exercise. A Rorshach test written in rustsicles...
I understand and I agree, ... that is why re-constructing historically those events is very difficult and requires a lot of patient research and study.

What I had hard time to understand and mostly agree about, ... was this statement you made above :
Close examinations of the ship's plans coupled with a reading of written and oral descriptions suggest that the projectile approached at a relative angle of about 250 degrees, i.e. from about 20 degrees aft of the port beam.
Can you clarify it a bit more, .... because I arrived to a complete different conclusion time ago and I have even used it to challenge Winklareth many years ago already, ... and it is pretty well demonstrated too by several evidence.


Thanks and bye, Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Bill Jurens » Fri Oct 12, 2018 9:58 pm

I can't clarify much. The last serious effort I made to go over this data was several years ago now, and memory -- at least very detailed memory -- fails. Certainly nothing new seems to have been added since that time, i.e. there have no new documents, etc. discovered since then. So although I did review the situation briefly during the book preparation process, I saw no need at that point to significantly revise my previous conclusions.

The written descriptions -- I guess, technically they are ALL written descriptions -- though some have been adapted from oral statements give details regarding the depth of the flooding, items damaged by the projectile in transit, and bulkheads damaged. Some clues reside in the measures taken in order to transfer fuel oil supposedly rendered at least temporarily inaccessible by the projectile hit. This, coupled with examinations of the ships plans, including those showing the locations of air escapes and fuel manifolds, etc., allow one -- or in my case allowED one -- to perform a fairly good reconstruction. It's also handy to have had a chance to examine the ship's bow area in detail via a remote submersible, which I was fortunate enough to be able to do years back.

One needs access to (and the ability to understand) fairly detailed ship's plans in order to accomplish this sort of work. "Anatomy of the Ship" type treatments, good as they are, just don't provide enough detail. Other sources do.

Bill Jurens

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:08 am

Hello everybody,

@ Bill Jurens,

I see what you mean and I had immediately understood it, and it was not a problem for me of course.

My only problem was the conclusions that the " very superficial guy " writing above pretended to sell to me based on your statement, ... and try to counter my work with them, ... and that is why I needed to demonstrate to him that it was incorrect.

Bismarck was not in a course 270° when she received that it, and the hit did not came from aft the beam.

The Bismarck was still on course 220° degrees and the hit came from forward the beam as it must have been, since it entered from the compartment XXI ( 21st ) and came out from the compartment XX ( 20th ).

II_Treffer_07.jpg
II_Treffer_07.jpg (20.25 KiB) Viewed 291 times

Here above you have the official communication from Bismarck about the damage received.

Above on my drawing and on the photo by David Mearns you have the evidence demonstrating from which compartment ( abteilung ) the shell came out, and it was the XX ( the 20th ).

It does not take much at this point to realize from whick compartment the shell came in and it was the XXI ( the 21st ).

I did this demosntration already in front of R. Winklareth 15 years ago more or less, ... and I thougth at this point it was a given to everybody.

Here it is from my archive :

BS_bow_hit_angles.JPG
BS_bow_hit_angles.JPG (93.67 KiB) Viewed 291 times

Here above on my old drawing you can see everything in details, ... entry shell compartment XXI, the exit shell compartment XX, the Bismarck course 220° and from which direction ( 330° ) the PoW shell was coming in , ... and it is a perfect match as it must be of course.

Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 13, 2018 8:21 am

Hello everybody,

in order to close definitively my above demonstration I like to provide also the account support of the logic I have used to determine that event, based on Jochen Brennecke book " Schlachtschiff Bismarck " pages 154 and 155, ... and very likely his witness account received by the Bismarck survivor Wilhelm Schmidt he mentioned describing this event.

Here you go :


Brennecke_book_page_154.jpg
Brennecke_book_page_154.jpg (75.25 KiB) Viewed 290 times
Brennecke_book_page_155.jpg
Brennecke_book_page_155.jpg (100.8 KiB) Viewed 290 times

I hope that now all is more clear to everybody.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Oct 13, 2018 9:43 am

The problem is that the hole on the starboard side is one deck to high.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Sat Oct 13, 2018 10:53 am

Hello everybody,

@ Herr Nilsson,

you wrote :
The problem is that the hole on the starboard side is one deck to high.
that is one of the reasons why I was talking about the inside ship possible deflection occurred.

BS_stb_Treffer_1_Panzerdeck.jpg
BS_stb_Treffer_1_Panzerdeck.jpg (68.98 KiB) Viewed 260 times

Again, ... just as Bill Jurens wisely underlined, ... someone was assuming those photos are the ones to be associated to that hit, ... but there is not a 100% confirmation of course, ... as the hull does have several hits.

What we can do, ... is to use the official data and the witness account description, ... and try to correlate them, ... and that is exactly what I did many years ago already, ... and here above you have the results of my work.

That is the reason why, ... I cannot accept and agree on the statement that the PoW shell came on the hull from aft the beam, ... because it surely came from forward the beam as everybody can read and quite easily realize now.

Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Herr Nilsson
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Herr Nilsson » Sat Oct 13, 2018 11:21 am

No, it‘s not a matter of deflection. The official statement is „exit above armor deck“, which is the upper platform deck in this area. The big hole is on the tween deck. Therefore it can‘t be from PoW.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)

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