Hits on PoW and Bismarck

Discussions about the history of the ship, technical details, etc.
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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:08 am

Hello everybody,

@ Bill Jurens,

you wrote above :
The Baron was a fascinating fellow, and resided for many years in Toronto, Canada, as a career diplomat. (During that time, I corresponded with him a bit regarding the accuracy of Bismarck's gunfire.) In that role, he was very careful about his language, and the possible consequences thereof. He would never tell a lie outright -- dead honest in that regard -- but was very good at telling only that part of the truth which was diplomatically advantageous and sufficient to answer the question. It was only a fair bit afterwards that I discovered how carefully nuanced some of his statements were. Diplomatic conversation -- telling 'just enough' -- is an art, and he was very good at it.
I never met personally the Baron, but I have a very good friend of mine that was his personal friend and visited him several times, … and from what he described me about the Baron von Mullenheim Rechberg personality, I think I can fully confirm your above impression.

More, I have interviewed many German Bismarck and Prinz Eugen survivors as well as German survivors from many other warships.

There is a common attitude on responding your questions you perceive immediately, a very cautionary way to tell you only what asked and nothing more.

Only when they realize you only care about history and nothing else, … then you have something more and they start being a bit more relaxed and open.

Of course when they realize that you know a lot about their lived experiences, … then you can have what they have kept secret form many years, … and you can learn something new from them too.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

paul.mercer
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by paul.mercer » Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:42 am

alecsandros wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 7:42 am
Bill Jurens wrote:
Mon Oct 08, 2018 8:35 pm
except that if the hole in the shell were very large, as might have occurred if the projectile detonated inside the ship, it might have required Bismarck to reduce speed somewhat during the rest of the operation.
For the record, Bismarck did reduce speed during May 24th, at 22kts then at 16kts or lower, to conduct repairs.

Later, average speed based on coordinates existing at the time of the loss of contact (May 25th 03:00) and re-acquiring of contact (May 26th 10:20) was 21kts. Later it was increased to 25kts (average) , based on coordinates between re-acquiring of contact (10:20) and fatal attack (21:00).
Gentlemen,
Without wishing to reopen the events of the battle and turnaway by PoW which have been discussed at length in other posts, the Baron reports in his book that Bismarck shipped around 2000 tons of water in her bow after the hit which gave Bismarck a small list (which I believe was corrected by counter flooding, thus adding even more water in the ship) and caused the tips of her propellers to come out of the water in the heavy sea, so I have always wondered that if her speed was reduced whether she could have actually caught up with PoW who although damaged, seemed to be able to still steam at near her maximum speed and it was this that influenced Lutyens not to pursue, particularly as any increase in speed made the flooding worse?

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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by alecsandros » Tue Oct 09, 2018 10:01 am

paul.mercer wrote:
Tue Oct 09, 2018 9:42 am
so I have always wondered that if her speed was reduced whether she could have actually caught up with PoW who although damaged, seemed to be able to still steam at near her maximum speed and it was this that influenced Lutyens not to pursue, particularly as any increase in speed made the flooding worse?
… Prince of Wales was doing 27kts during her retreat from Bismarck. Bismarck was probably doing 28kts... If that is true surface speed or equivalent speed in shaft rpm , I do not know (later reports from Prince of Wales stated best speed 26kts).
In any case, my impression is it would have been unlikely for Bismarck to catch up on Prince of Wales.
But, what could have been done instead would have been to keep the range (15000meters or so) existing at 6:04 or so, or at least at 6:07 (17000meters or so) for 20-30minutes, in an attempt to produce further damage and speed reduction. That was probably considered as being unnecessary by Luetjens.

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wadinga
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Thu Oct 11, 2018 6:49 pm

Hello Bill Jurens,
Bismarck was hit only once in the bow, not twice. The best evidence would suggest that if projectile in question detonated at all, it did so on or slightly outboard of the shell plating on the disengaged side.

Have you discovered any evidence to indicate from what angle of entry relative to the centreline this "through-and-through" occurred?


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

Bill Jurens
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Bill Jurens » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:00 pm

Close examinations of the ship's plans coupled with a reading of written and oral descriptions suggest that the projectile approached at a relative angle of about 250 degrees, i.e. from about 20 degrees aft of the port beam.

Bill Jurens

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José M. Rico
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by José M. Rico » Thu Oct 11, 2018 8:21 pm

Bill,

In the following link we can see that the entry and exit holes, port and starboard, are both over the false white waves:

http://www.hmshood.com/hoodtoday/2001ex ... marck5.htm

That would indicate an angle very close to 270º (i.e zero degrees), unless the holes don't belong to the same 14-inch hit in question of course. Can you confirm that from your wreck examination?

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:32 pm

Hello everybody,

a very interesting hypothesis, ... but in my personal opinion it is a bit premature to try to determine the exact direction of the incoming shell from 2 photos showing the holes in the wreck.

Who stated that the shell was surely not deflected inside the hull ? ... and consequently the 2 holes, ... even assuming they are surely both from that PoW 14 inch shell received by Bismarck on May 24th, 1941, ... can perfectly be not in a perfect alignment with the original shell path.

This obviously due to the inside ship structure shell received deflection angle, ... because the shell hit something, ... and was deflected on her original incoming path.

We have hundreds of examples of deflected shells, ... it is enough to read the HMS Prince of Wales damage report about it.

More, we are not even sure that both the holes we are looking at are from that PoW May 24th hit, ... as I read on the photos I saw in the link, ... and Bismarck was heavily fired at on May 27th, 1941, ... almost everywhere.

Just my current opinion, ... waiting for more information about it, ... of course, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Bill Jurens » Thu Oct 11, 2018 9:40 pm

I do not personally believe that the identifications of the supposed entry and exit holes for the hit in the bow of Bismarck as shown on the Hood website, etc., are very reliable. This is, one might remember, the expedition that long-championed a more-or-less entirely imaginative interpretation which suggested a forward magazine explosion on Hood. In the absence of other information, I would consider any correlation between observed shell holes and historically recorded events as somewhat speculative at best.

Bill Jurens

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Oct 11, 2018 10:00 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Bill Jurens,

I agree.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:11 pm

Hello All,
but in my personal opinion it is a bit premature to try to determine the exact direction of the incoming shell from 2 photos showing the holes in the wreck.

Hardly a surprise. :lol: Documentary evidence;

Close examinations of the ship's plans coupled with a reading of written and oral descriptions suggest that the projectile approached at a relative angle of about 250 degrees, i.e. from about 20 degrees aft of the port beam.

Photographic evidence:

we can see that the entry and exit holes, port and starboard, are both over the false white waves:

Discounted with panic-stricken blather about deflection:
Who stated that the shell was surely not deflected inside the hull ?

Because either case proves Bismarck was not on 220T when she was hit. An angle of incidence of either 20 degrees abaft the beam or even directly on the beam shows Bismarck had turned away. On 220T And this hit was almost certainly before 06:00.


Just as the angle of incidence on PoW's Compass Platform proved the ludicrous "panicking Leach Theory" incorrect, so the angle of incidence here shows Bismarck had turned away before 06:00, confirming Lagemann's identification of the single shots falling near Prinz Eugen as being from Hood and the film of Bismarck's rapid-fire sequence from the same time.


All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:38 pm

Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Documentary evidence.....Photographic evidence..."
Which ones, please ? Can we see how they should "demonstrate" the path of shell that Mr.Wadinga dreams about since a while ? :wink:


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 12:52 pm

Hello everybody,

I was just waiting the most " intelligent fish " on this forum to hang on the hook, ... :whistle:

Now lets see how this " pseudo expert " will demonstrate and show to us all from where the shell entered the Bismarck and from where it went out, ... both on the photographic evidence as well as on the historical documented accounts.

It was not enough to have been badly kicked on the back on the Court Martial threat event ... and on the Norfolk bearings, ... it was not enough to have showed his very poor competences with the 1960 battle map, ... 3 really pathetic and ridiculous performances, ... now we have also the Bismarck received shell in the bow.

So we can go from 0 to 3, ... to 0 to 4, ... :wink:

Come on, ... we are just here waiting your demonstration now, ... show us all what happened according to your " intuitions " , ...


@ Alberto Virtuani,

you need to pay me the pizza as agreed now, ... as I was anticipating you yesterday night that the " big fish " was going surely to " eat the hook " entirely.

Bye Antonio
Last edited by Antonio Bonomi on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:01 pm

@Antonio,
you wrote: "you need to pay me the pizza as agreed now"
I give always too much credit to this guy's brain... :evil: but I will be happy to pay you the pizza in case he is unable to present any "evidence" ! :lol:


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Antonio Bonomi
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Fri Oct 12, 2018 1:04 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Alberto Virtuani,

the Spontini one with pepperoni adder will be OK, ... with Coca Cola and Coffe as usual ...

This was easy, ... too easy, ... :wink:

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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wadinga
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Re: hits on PoW and Bismarck

Post by wadinga » Fri Oct 12, 2018 3:23 pm

Hello Antonio and Alberto,

In cartoons when the comedy villains (think Dick Dastardly and Mutley) look down and see the rapidly expanding shadow of the falling Grand Piano around their feet, they have a last cigarette, not a pizza. :lol:

If the documentary evidence is good enough for Bill Jurens, and the photograph good enough for David Mearns and Jose Rico, they are probably good enough for any reasonable person.


It was also very good of you to finally own up after so many years and self identify as Trollers
I was just waiting the most " intelligent fish " on this forum to hang on the hook,
Definition:
controversial comments on various internet forums with the intent to provoke an emotional knee jerk reaction from unsuspecting readers to engage in a fight or argument. Trolling on-line forums as described above is actually analogous to the fishing technique of “trolling”, where colorful baits and lures are pulled behind a slow moving boat, often with multiple fishing lines,
All the best

wadinga
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