Bismarck at DS after the second turn

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Alberto Virtuani
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Wed Dec 05, 2018 1:52 pm

Hello everybody,
again a bit too many different topics thrown randomly on the table, instead of raising one observation at a time....

Wadinga wrote: "There are also disappointingly evasive observations..."
..the only very disappointing evasive observations here are these attempts to avoid to acknowledge the set of evidences provided by Antonio (I hope the moderator will admonish this forum member no to accuse anybody anymore).
Please stay to what has been identified (already shared) as reliable info and proposed as a starting set of evidences by Antonio: they are more than enough for the time being (viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8335&hilit=set+of+e ... 105#p81418).


He also wrote: "They were given to Busch by Brinkmann in an astonishing breach of security, giving information about B-Dienst's ability to read the enemy's coded signals in real time"
No, they were not as 195° (reciprocal of 15°) was never communicated by Suffolk. It is not even present on PG battlemap... Please do provide evidence of the contrary, before changing argument once again.
Thus 15° bearing, 176 hm distance and the Suffolk "mast" are original info from German side (as well as the others, most presumably).
All the other bearings simply match perfectly with the British ones (from NF and PoW) at the same time, without need to speculate about "security breaches" and "disguising counter-measures" or whatsoever else.
In case they come from NF or PoW intercepted messages and not from direct observations (that needs to be proven), they would have been surely carefully checked through PG optical and RDF equipment, before communicating wrong or even fake info to Lutjens....



Regarding Jasper report, I agree it gives us many useful info, but I agree no bearing can be used from him, based on what we all have at hand here. Luckily there are bearings that can be picked up from PG KTB and battlemap.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Wed Dec 05, 2018 2:33 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

we are trying to build a reliable battle map starting from the overall battle field proper dimension and the main track references, I mean the BC1 warships ( Hood and PoW ) and the German squadron ( Bismarck and Prinz Eugen ) from 05:20 until 06:00.

As I have stated above :
It is really possible and fairly easy to build it from 05:37 until 06:00, ... and I do not see the reason why we cannot reach a defined map and a shared general consensus and agreement about it.

It is just a geometrical figure with known parameters ( angles ) to be adjusted for tolerances, ... and nothing else.
The Prinz Eugen was on course 220° true at 27 knots, Bismarck followed in line of battle as well on 220° true course.
The BC1 warships started from a 240° true course, turning on 280° true, than 300° true and after again on 280° true course at 28 knots.

Prinz Eugen is a given, the only variables are only the BC1 turns and the Bismarck speed that will result clear from the PoW relative bearings while firing at her all the way thru, from 05:53 until 06:00.

It is a very easy geometrical exercise to put down the 4 warships main tracks and have the British main 4 bearings I have listed above being correctly associated with timing and tolerances to those 4 tracks.

I do not see the reason why someone will refute to do it and agree that it is the best estimate we can have about this battle.

David Mearns made the BC1 exercise from the 05:43 ( Warrand ) until 06:00 and went directly on top of the Hood wreck, I did it and it fits perfectly. PoW goes along with it as obvious.
The Bismarck was in line following the Prinz Eugen, the PoW bearings will give us her relative speed and position in relation to the Prinz Eugen track.

What does have Jasper report to do with this geometrical figure, ... just nothing for the moment, ... and by the way there is only one Jasper report and it is the one attached to the PG KTB we all can read and have available on line, like the Schmalenbach one as well.

What does F.O. Busch reciprocal bearings have to do with this geometrical figure ? Just nothing for the moment, ... because his bearings where just perfectly in line ( reciprocal ) with the British ones I have provided in original on the messages above ( 157° is the opposite of 337° ).
So lets use the British inputs, and forget for the moment about F.O. Busch writing the same stuffs on his books as confirmation.

Lets put down the tracks in scale for speed and course from the 06:00 agreed point backwards and align the 4 British taken bearings I have listed above ( A, B, C and D ).

After we do this and agree about it, we can determine using the PoW gunnery plot the Bismarck track more precisely, ...and after have done it we can start all the other discussions from a more solid reasoning base.

I follow Bill Jurens recommendation, ... patiently one step at a time, ... and we can move this work ahead positively and in a constructive way as a team.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Dec 06, 2018 3:44 am

For reference in connection with the tactical turn-away of Prince of Wales -

For a ship of her size commencing a turn at 28 knots under 35 degrees helm (and assuming no reduction in power during said turn) -
> Speed after 45 degrees change of heading would be reduced by approximately 15 pct (say, 24 kts).
> Speed after 90 degrees change of heading would be reduced by approximately 25 pct (say, 21 kts).
> Speed after 132 degrees change of heading would be reduced by approximately 33 pct (say, 19 kts).

(Based upon RN figures for HMS Repulse)

Byron

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:36 am

Hello everybody,

thanks to Byron Angel for the British ships turning speed loss data posted above. These can be used to better shape PoW course and track after 6:03-6:04 (end of turn away).

Does anyone knows how much time would have been needed to get back from 18-19 knots to 28 ? I guess quite some time, even with extra-pressure available....

Also are data available for turns smoothly executed (e.g.with 10° rudder), like probably the ones before 6:00 ? I guess loss of speed should be almost negligible for such 20° turns (while turning time much higher).


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 06, 2018 8:55 am

Hello everybody,

@ Byron Angel,

thanks for your inputs.

I think it should be OK to assume a slowing down of something in between 5 to 8% ( no hard rudder ) so between 1 to 2 knots during the 40° executed first turn from course 240° True to course 280° True.
I assume they were under their maximum extra power so 1 to 2 knots should be close to reality, ... being recovered withing some minutes for sure.

On the last 2 turns of 20° it should be much less, so just a minimum variation.

At the end they will be just an adjustments factor to this map, rounding a bit the 3 BC1 warships turns I have circled in RED.

0520_until_0600_bearings_02.jpg
0520_until_0600_bearings_02.jpg (50.38 KiB) Viewed 1582 times

I think that after a close examination to this map tracks, timing and bearings, we should be all in agreement about this picture and scenario.

I have added the 06:00 bearing X between Prinz Eugen and PoW, ... that was 143° True, ... and of course it becomes 323° True when seen from PoW to Prinz Eugen ( reciprocal ), ... that will allow us to make the correct calculations about the real distances since it provides the reference of 15.000 meters on that moment and consequently it generates the scale of the map, ... backwards all the way thru.

I think that if everybody interested will print in large scale this map and double check it, ... for bearings, timings and distances, ... we can all be in agreement about it very easily.

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by wadinga » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:21 am

Hello Antonio,

Please explain what this means:
by the way there is only one Jasper report and it is the one attached to the PG KTB we all can read and have available on line,
I wish you a good luck on finding the other document ( Prinz Eugen B. Nr. G 2243 of 12.7.1941- only sent to the Commander of Cruisers )

Jasper says
"(see technical and material report)" on page 41 of the KTB so there was another more detailed report.
Are you saying the detailed gunnery report, rather than a few off the cuff comments included in the narrative, and supposedly submitted direct to the Commander of Cruisers as referenced in the Brinkmann letter dated 17th July attached to the KTB, didn't actually ever exist, or has definitely been destroyed, or may still exist to be found? How do you know any of this?

Why do you contradict Jasper and Brinkmann?
Please stay to what has been identified (already shared) as reliable info and proposed as a starting set of evidences by Antonio: they are more than enough for the time being

Is what has already been shared "enough for the time being"?

Some of the "reliable" info is not reliable.
The Prinz Eugen was on course 220° true at 27 knots,


The Gefechtsskizze gives us this.
Bismarck followed in line of battle as well on 220° true course.


Supposition/conjecture. Nobody says what course Bismarck was on or that she was directly behind PG . Hood and PoW were together in the Line of Battle, but the latter was not following directly astern. From the KTB: At 05:21 schiffe (plural) turn to 170T, at 05:32 Schiff (singular) turns back to 220T.

Suffolk says Bismarck appeared to turn.
Enemy appeared to be approaching, and in case he had reversed course at 0538 (being "turned" by the Battle Cruiser Squadron), Suffolk circled to keep northward of enemy
Rowell says in his Iceland letter, Bismarck turned.
Prinz Eugen is a given
Nothing is a given. All the evidence should be evaluated dispassionately. The ranges on the Gefechtsskizze are wrong, no speed reductions after violent turns are represented. The "loss of target" turn has still to be explained.

The change to firing at PoW ordered at 05:55 is not recorded as happening: "Wechsel auf linken gegner" until 05:59:45 this is on 140T degrees whereas the enemy targetted at 05:55 was on 151T. Ten degrees of bearing change in only 5 minutes? The two targets were so close together that cannot be a factor. The earlier plotted lines have questions too.

The 300 hm range at 05:50 is drawn as 150T but the derived bearing created by intercepting PoW's 17 mile on 337T is drawn at an illegible (on the scanned version) time on the PG track. Antonio, since you have a good copy, how about telling us what it is? Then earlier than this is another bearing, apparently to the Norfolk, time unmarked, and presumably fabricated from another intercept, since the range is so long. I can see no time for this, what is the estimated timing on PG's track?

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Dec 06, 2018 10:46 am

Hello everybody:
Mr.Jurens wrote: "I would also suggest that we as much as possible refrain from mixing, as it were, various issues, i.e. discussing attempting to address more than one issue in a single post, and -- along similar lines -- to try to refrain from posting a snowstorm of objections to a given proposal. One point of refutation at a time, particularly if it is a strong one, should be sufficient. ... Discussing one point at a time will enable us to focus more clearly on the immediate task at hand, hopefully clearing that up, one way or another, before moving on to further points of disagreement. "
I feel the above post does not fully comply with the moderator's suggestion.

Please one objection (possibly strong enough...) and one question (possibly relevant to what we are discussing...) at a time. Thanks.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 06, 2018 2:51 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

once again the only available Jasper report is the one contained as attachment into the PG KTB.
I have not yet find any other document about Jasper report of Brinkmann to Schmundt report above listed.

The Prinz Eugen own battle map is more than sufficient to establish the Prinz Eugen course from 05:37 until 06:00.
In case of doubts you can check Reimann PG torpedo map, and the PG KTB; all will confirm the PG Track on 220° True course.
The Prinz Eugen speed at 27 knots in confirmed by its machinery log chart.
The Prinz Eugen positioning on this battle map in relation to the BC1 warships and vice-versa is a given.

YES, what has been shared it is more than enough to do this job with very good tolerances as I did already.

David Mearns found the Hood wreck doing half of the job I am proposing here now, the part related to the BC1 warship tracks.

All available German documents are stating that Bismarck was following the Prinz Eugen in line of battle until the Torpedo issued alarm by Prinz Eugen ( at 06:03 ), and she was on her starboard side ( F.O. Busch and Schmalenbach ).
RearAdm Wake-Walker stated on his report that Bismarck was following the Prinz Eugen, and on " The Plot " at 05:53 we have a couple of bearings to Prinz Eugen and Bismarck taken from the Norfolk demonstrating it too.

Once done with the map the PoW gunnery plot will demonstrate it too, with the Bismarck speed and timing correlation.
I just do not see what else we need to have to determine the Bismarck track, speed and timings, not having her own original battle map.
We just have all is needed to do it with very acceptable tolerances as I already did.

You are at the end of your above post just listing the reasons why VizeAdm Hubert Schmundt wrote what he wrote about the positioning of the enemy in relation to the Prinz Eugen being not possible from that map distances, and nothing else.
We have already clarified all this on previous posts on this thread, it is a known fact by now.

This does not have anything to do with the validity of the Prinz Eugen own track and speed, and the bearing toward the PoW at 06:00 we have agreed being available also on the Reimann torpedo map, and it was 143° True.
The distance at 06:00 between Pg and PoW comes from Jasper as already agreed being 15.000 meters.

Again, I do not see any valid reason not to proceed and agree on the BC1 tracks, the German tracks and the 1+4 ( 5 ) bearings verification I have listed above between 05:37 and 06:00 battle time.

Those ones :
0520_until_0600_bearings_02.jpg
0520_until_0600_bearings_02.jpg (50.38 KiB) Viewed 1544 times
If someone disagrees, I like to read the reasons why and the proposed alternative to be evaluated against it.

Thanks and bye, Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by wadinga » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:29 pm

Hello All,

Life's too short for this pedestrian one point per post approach. Only
once again the only available Jasper report is the one contained as attachment into the PG KTB.
I have not yet find any other document about Jasper report of Brinkmann to Schmundt report above listed.
is not the same as:
and by the way there is only one Jasper report and it is the one attached to the PG KTB we all can read and have available on line, like the Schmalenbach one as well.
which is incorrect. And just a tad............misleading. One might accept it at face value and stop looking for this superior quality information.

what it should say is "Yes there was a more detailed report, as described by Jasper and Brinkmann, presumably with lots of valuable information which might resolve anomalies , but it has not survived or else I (and everybody else) have failed to find it. So far. However we (actually you) don't need to bother to look for it because I already have the solution I require."


Looking at your diagram the obvious anomaly is how the British manage to lose so much bearing between range D and range X. I presume the D is meant to represent PoW's salvo 1 at Bismarck from the salvo plot, and X is the 05:59:45 marking from the Gefechtsskizze or 06:00 on Reimann's sketch from PG to PoW? In similar periods on similar headings the bearing has changed by one or two degrees only.


Yes, there are two different German ships involved, but there is a 12 degree difference in azimuth. Of that say, two degrees is still the Germans overtaking the British, the remaining 10 degrees at average range 22,000yds would mean PG is still apparently 3,900yds ahead of Bismarck at 06:00, when even your timing for the film and stills says only 3 minutes later, Bismarck is almost alongside to starboard, and at 06:09, alongside to port.


Something is obviously wrong. Using Herr Nilsson's British track may improve things because with the British steering 300T for longer the Germans will naturally overtake faster. Have you tried that?

All the best

wadinga
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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Antonio Bonomi » Thu Dec 06, 2018 7:46 pm

Hello everybody,

@ Wadinga,

do we have to consider that you have evaluated the above map and the related tracks on all his provided details, ... that you have done all the requested checks with the due obvious tolerances, ... and you still disagree about it ?

Bye Antonio
In order to honor a soldier, we have to tell the truth about what happened over there. The whole, hard, cold truth. And until we do that, we dishonor her and every soldier who died, who gave their life for their country. ( Courage Under Fire )

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Dec 06, 2018 9:47 pm

Hello everybody,

life's too short for following Mr.Wadinga's "snowstorm" of unsupported and meaningless objections....

Why "something is obviously wrong" ?

At 06:00 there are 7° difference between the bearings of PG (323° reciprocal of 143°) and BS (330° from PoW salvo plot) as seen from PoW (not 10°).
At 15 km distance (not 22000 yards), on course 220°, this means slightly more than 1900 meters distance (basic trigonometry) between the German ships (2100 yards) at 6:00. What are the random figures proposed by Mr.Wadinga above ?

Can he stay on topic for once and try to substantiate his "objection" ?


Bye, Alberto
Last edited by Alberto Virtuani on Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:00 pm

Does anyone knows how much time would have been needed to get back from 18-19 knots to 28?
Based once again upon RN data for performance of HMS Repulse, assuming full power and steady heading:
Time required to accelerate from 19 kts to 21 kts = 2 minutes.
Time required to accelerate from 21 kts to 24 kts = 4 minutes.
Time required to accelerate from 24 kts to 28 kts = 13 minutes.

Also are data available for turns smoothly executed (e.g.with 10° rudder), like probably the ones before 6:00 ? I guess loss of speed should be almost negligible for such 20° turns (while turning time much higher).
No really clear data in hand. All data for turns under easy helm relate to 15deg rudder at speeds </= 20 kts and mostly in the 14-15 kt range. Best semi-informed guesstimate of speed lost by a fast battleship type making a two point turn under easy helm (15deg rudder) at high speed (say, +/-30 kts) would be </= 5 pct (i.e., 1.0 - 1.5 kts).


B

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Alberto Virtuani » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:08 pm

Hello everybody,

thanks to Byron Angel for these data.

Obviously recovering speed after a significant loss is quite time-consuming, especially to get back to top speeds and w ecan keep it into account after 6:02-6:03 for PoW.

However, turns executed very smoothly don't affect significantly the speed, therefore we can assume 28 knots were maintained during the engagement, at least until 6:00, despite the turns ordered by Holland.


Bye, Alberto
"It takes three years to build a ship; it takes three centuries to build a tradition" (Adm.A.B.Cunningham)

"There's always a danger running in the enemy at close range" (Adm.W.F.Wake-Walker)

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by Byron Angel » Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:47 pm

Alberto Virtuani wrote:
Thu Dec 06, 2018 11:08 pm
Hello everybody,

thanks to Byron Angel for these data.

Obviously recovering speed after a significant loss is quite time-consuming, especially to get back to top speeds and we can keep it into account after 6:02-6:03 for PoW.

However, turns executed very smoothly don't affect significantly the speed, therefore we can assume 28 knots were maintained during the engagement, at least until 6:00, despite the turns ordered by Holland.


Bye, Alberto

Ships operating in formation, as with Hood and PoW on the day in question, customarily kept a knot or two in hand for station-keeping purposes.

B

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Re: Bismarck at DS after the second turn

Post by wadinga » Fri Dec 07, 2018 2:34 am

Hello Prof Virtuani,

At 06:00 there are 7° difference between the bearings of PG (323° reciprocal of 143°) and BS (330° from PoW salvo plot) as seen from PoW (not 10°).
But I didn't say at 06:00 did I?
Looking at your diagram the obvious anomaly is how the British manage to lose so much bearing between range D and range X. I presume the D is meant to represent PoW's salvo 1 (that means 05:53) at Bismarck from the salvo plot, and X is the 05:59:45 marking from the Gefechtsskizze or 06:00 on Reimann's sketch from PG to PoW? In similar periods on similar headings the bearing has changed by one or two degrees only.
(that means 05:53) is not 06:00 - basic understanding of time, read what it says, not what you want it to say. The point is the British lost about ten degrees of bearing in only 6 minutes, between the entirely different times of 05:53 and 06:00- got it? The average range from the salvo diagram between these times is 22,000yds. If the diagram were right, and the difference was all down to vessel spacing that would mean Bismarck was 3900 yds astern. Therefore the diagram is wrong.

Also on this diagram PG apparently travels 25% further between range D which happens at 05:53 and 06:00 than PoW, despite both travelling at the same speed.


When I catch someone attempting to mislead:
and by the way there is only one Jasper report and it is the one attached to the PG KTB we all can read and have available on line,
When we all know there is a clear reference in the KTB and Brinkmann's letter to a different, much more detailed one, perhaps waiting to be found, I call them out for it.

And the result is a straightforward and clear denial from Antonio, that having been to the Bundesarchiv, he has found such a document. Care to tell us in a similarly clear and straightforward manner what you know about Jasper's other writings to senior officers?

All the best

wadinga

All the best

wadinga
"There seems to be something wrong with our bloody ships today!"

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