Hello everybody,
Wadinga wrote: "Lutjens could have made the same decision as Nebogatov. "
As explained (
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8725&p=84985&hilit= ... off#p84985) and never addressed, Nebogatof took his decision when the war was lost already: no other fleet could be sent to Far East and Russia had been defeated in Manchuria. The sacrifice of the Russian sailors would have been without any tactical return as no significant damage (very doubtful) inflicted by his ships could have weakened the Japanese sea control. He chose to save lives, at the risk of his own, but he forgot he had still a duty to accomplish (and in addition, he did not scuttle his ships, tha was really unforgivable).
Despite the "good reasons", the surrender of the fleet did not help the zar facing the germs of the revolution, weakened the government and left to the enemy 4 battleships and 1 cruiser, this is why he was dismissed from the Navy, lost his noble title and was sentenced to death (the non-execution of the sentence is irrelevant here, nobody pretends that timid officers have to be shot "à la Bing" as per Lord Fisher colourful expression), based on the (very similar) disciplinary laws in force in any Navy.
Also, despite his "paternal" attention for his sailors, many Russian Commanders and Officers were reluctant to obey such a dishonouring order: the Captain of the cruiser Izumrud refused to obey and sailed away from the surrender.
Many officers refused to obey and were menaced by the sailors because they wanted to fight. On board Nebogatoff's flagship, an Officer shot himself to avoid surrender. On the same ship (Nikolaj I), two Lieutenants went down to the engine room to open the sea valves and scuttle the ship on their own initiative (to avoid she could be captured by Japanese), but they were prevented from doing so. Many officers were crying while the Russian flag was lowered without fighting and similar episodes happened on all surrending Russian ships.
On Orjol (the only modern surviving battleship surrendered to the Japanese, badly damaged), with her Captain mortally wounded and lying in the ship's hospital, after the Japanese took control of the ship and were in route for japan, some Russian Officers tried to ignite a magazine to sink the ship (with all crew). They were caught by the Japanese picket and shot on the quarterdeck, in front of the whole crew.
Lutjens had still a ship that could have inflicted significant damages to Tovey's units and, most important, war was not yet lost for Germany at all in May 1941.
The propaganda effect of a Bismarck's surrender would have cost to his country (I cannot care less that the actual regime was an evil one or not...) and to his Navy much more than the loss of 2000 sailors.
Bismarck fire actually caused casualties on Vian's destroyers, straddled both Tovey's battlewagons and, most of all, kept high the honour of the Kriegsmarine in a critical moment of the war.
The Baron (and the majority of the survivors) never said he would have considered a surrender as a possible option...
Only after having fought his last battle, Bismarck could have been surrendered, saving the lifes of her remaining crew, but, as said, at that time Lutjens was probably dead.
Nebogatoff saved lives but he was not celebrated as a hero by his country, even after the zar regime was gone... Lutjens was celebrated for his death even after the war by the new Germany (that dedicated him a ship) because he had done his D.U.T.Y. with the Bismarck.
You may like him or not, criticise his tactical decisions, but it's impossible not to recognise his astonishing victory on May 24 and his sense of duty on May 27.
Bye, Alberto