Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

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Herr Nilsson
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Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by Herr Nilsson »

There is a discrepancy between Jasper's GAR and the request for topping up the shells.

KTB May, 24th 1942
ktb.jpg
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M.A.Za. (Marineartilleriezeugamt Brest ~ Naval Artillery Arsenal Brest) June, 7th 1941
maza.jpg
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Any thoughts?
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
Steve Crandell
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by Steve Crandell »

The magazines weren't full when they left Norway?
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by dunmunro »

Herr Nilsson wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 11:50 am There is a discrepancy between Jasper's GAR and the request for topping up the shells.

KTB May, 24th 1942

ktb.jpg

M.A.Za. (Marineartilleriezeugamt Brest ~ Naval Artillery Arsenal Brest) June, 7th 1941

maza.jpg

Any thoughts?
The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.

Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.

So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.

Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by Herr Nilsson »

Thank you for your replies!
Steve Crandell wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:30 pm The magazines weren't full when they left Norway?
"Verschuss" implies the shells were really shot. In my opinion it's unlikely PG wasn't fully equipped.
dunmunro wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:39 pm The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.

Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.

So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.

Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
Yes, "Vorkart" is "Vorkartusche" (fore charge) and "Hüls Kart" is "Hülsenkartusche" (cartridge case charge -> main charge). 8+155 shells and two times 163 cartridges/charges indicates it's not a typo.
I think (and I agree) May 23rd is the only occasion PG could have fired shells, because afterwards she was protected by Bismarck. On the other hand neither Brinkmann (KTB) nor the machinery war diary are mentioning any opening of fire except from the 24th.

It's highly speculative, but perhaps Jasper's didn't record the salvo and its fall of shot he couldn't observe anymore due to the change of target. That could explain the "missing" salvo of the first shooting against Hood. IIRC Brinkmann stated 6 salvoes, but jasper only 5 for the first shooting.
Regards

Marc

"Thank God we blow up and sink more easily." (unknown officer from HMS Norfolk)
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello,
6 is a strange number for a 'missed salvo': it should be 1.5 salvos or 1 broadside (e.g. initial 'Vollsalve') with 2 guns failing together, when action started, as all 4 turrets were able to bear on enemy. I don't think Jasper counted himself the salvos. Even if he was unable to see fall of shots, the initial Vollsalve is mentioned in GAR.
The only shell that could not be fired is the one 'blocking' right gun of B turret: I do not know (GAR is generic) whether this shell was removed at sea or it was necessary to reach Brest to have it extracted. This shell/cartridge may well have been unusable afterward, but it's only 1, not 6.
Re. open fire on 23/5, I think it is very unprobable: Norfolk report only mentions Bismarck ('leading ship') opening fire and it would be 2 different ships (plus accounts from Brenneke, Baron and Busch) not recording this event.

My poor opinion is that, while magazines were certainly filled in at departure, possibly some extra stowage was still possible and Jasper was willing to have available as many shots as possible.

hans
dunmunro
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by dunmunro »

Herr Nilsson wrote: Thu Jul 21, 2022 9:52 am Thank you for your replies!
Steve Crandell wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:30 pm The magazines weren't full when they left Norway?
"Verschuss" implies the shells were really shot. In my opinion it's unlikely PG wasn't fully equipped.
dunmunro wrote: Wed Jul 20, 2022 7:39 pm The fact that 8 + 155 = 163 seems significant. I suspect that there was a typo in the M.A.Za. report and/or that it should have read 8 plus 155 for the two subsequent entries which may be referring to fore and aft propellant cartridges.

Edit: OK, I am fairly certain that 'vorkart' is referring to the first propellant cartridge that's loaded after the shell is rammed and that 'kart' refers to the 2nd cartridge that's loaded after the 'vorkart'.

So 8 plus 155 shells and 163 plus 163 cartridges.

Jasper reported 8 plus 149 20.3cm shells expended against Bismarck. So that leaves 6 x 20.3cm shells unaccounted for. The first possibility is that the initial count of shells expended and reported in the KTB was incorrect, or that Prinz Eugen expended 6 rounds in reply to being engaged by one of Wake-Walker's cruisers as reported on page 18 of the KTB and possibly this was not noted in the KTB.
Yes, "Vorkart" is "Vorkartusche" (fore charge) and "Hüls Kart" is "Hülsenkartusche" (cartridge case charge -> main charge). 8+155 shells and two times 163 cartridges/charges indicates it's not a typo.
I think (and I agree) May 23rd is the only occasion PG could have fired shells, because afterwards she was protected by Bismarck. On the other hand neither Brinkmann (KTB) nor the machinery war diary are mentioning any opening of fire except from the 24th.

It's highly speculative, but perhaps Jasper's didn't record the salvo and its fall of shot he couldn't observe anymore due to the change of target. That could explain the "missing" salvo of the first shooting against Hood. IIRC Brinkmann stated 6 salvoes, but jasper only 5 for the first shooting.
It's also possible that 6 x 20.3 cm shells were expended via 'unloading through the muzzle' and since there was no target it might not have been recorded in the KTB.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr. Dunmunro,
I tend to agree with your explanation above.

hans
paul.mercer
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
I would think that trying to unload a heavy shell and cordite was likely to be a bit difficult and possibly hazardous. so when a battle was over did any guns that were still loaded get fired off, or did they try and unload them?
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Re: Shells fired by Prinz Eugen

Post by Steve Crandell »

paul.mercer wrote: Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:21 am Gentlemen,
I would think that trying to unload a heavy shell and cordite was likely to be a bit difficult and possibly hazardous. so when a battle was over did any guns that were still loaded get fired off, or did they try and unload them?
Normally fired; also referred to as "unloading through the muzzle".
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