Graf Spee V Renown

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
paul.mercer
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Graf Spee V Renown

Post by paul.mercer » Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:10 am

Gentlemen,
I have looked back at the Hypothetical threads as far as 2008 but I don't think we have discussed this one before, so perhaps it has not been mentioned.
In the 'Atlantic Fleet battles' simulations one scenario has AGS sinking Renown and in another one of our contributors had AGS beating Renown 8 out of 12 times in another simulation.
I personally do not agree as I think that a 27000 ton, 32 knot ship armed with 6 x 15" would sink a 15/16000 ton 28 Knot 6 x 11" ship like AGS in very short order. As I said in the Atlantic Fleet Battles thread, in the River plate battle, "Exeter's 8" shells hurt AGS, so heaven knows hat Renown's 15" would do", particularly as Renown was known as a 'good' gunnery ship.
What do you think?

gflotron
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Re: Graf Spey V Renown

Post by gflotron » Wed Jul 07, 2021 4:56 pm

As the saying goes whenever there is a big upset in sports; That’s why the games are played.
That said, hard to imagine Renown not winning out; just brings too much to the table.

I’ve always been intrigued by the “what if” of Graf Spee and the Cumberland had the former engaged months earlier when her aircraft spotted the latter.
Obviously Langsdorff would have been in severe violation of his orders, but his ship would have been loaded up and ready to engage before Cumberland was aware, and it may have been a Coronel situation where you get a win in early.
The propaganda value is pretty impactive.
The Renown engaging Graf Spee could have been a Falklands situation then.

dunmunro
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Re: Graf Spey V Renown

Post by dunmunro » Wed Jul 07, 2021 7:59 pm

paul.mercer wrote:
Wed Jul 07, 2021 9:10 am
Gentlemen,
I have looked back at the Hypothetical threads as far as 2008 but I don't think we have discussed this one before, so perhaps it has not been mentioned.
In the 'Atlantic Fleet battles' simulations one scenario has AGS sinking Renown and in another one of our contributors had AGS beating Renown 8 out of 12 times in another simulation.
I personally do not agree as I think that a 27000 ton, 32 knot ship armed with 6 x 15" would sink a 15/16000 ton 28 Knot 6 x 11" ship like AGS in very short order. As I said in the Atlantic Fleet Battles thread, in the River plate battle, "Exeter's 8" shells hurt AGS, so heaven knows hat Renown's 15" would do", particularly as Renown was known as a 'good' gunnery ship.
What do you think?
Renown was well protected from AGS's 11in guns and it's very unlikely that AGS could sink Renown. Even discounting the armoured scarf deck behind her inclined 9in belt, Renown was immune from AGS's 11in AP shells beyond about 17k yds and with the 4in Scarf her magazines were basically immune at any realistic range.

gcogger
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Re: Graf Spey V Renown

Post by gcogger » Thu Jul 08, 2021 12:24 am

I'm the person who played the AGS vs Renown battle 12 times in Atlantic Fleet, and it simply proves to me that the game can be totally unbalanced. Renown was faster, better protected and more heavily armed. Such a fight would be a battlecruiser vs a heavy cruiser, and I don't believe that Langsdorff would have attempted anything but to make smoke and (try to) run.

paul.mercer
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Re: Graf Spey V Renown

Post by paul.mercer » Wed Jul 14, 2021 8:56 am

I believe that one of the rumours spread around by the British was that one of the ships waiting outside the harbour was HMS Renown, this may have been one of the things that influenced Capt Langsdorff to scuttle AGS. If this is true then he must have realised that his ship was no match for the Renown and the other two cruisers. I believe that some in Germany condemned his decision and I have always thought that it was a shame that he shot himself as he came across as a very decent man.

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