Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by paul mercer »

Karl Heidenreich wrote:Some time ago, it seems light years ago, I wrote the following hypothetical scenario for a Bismarck + Tirpitz scenario (I reckon that there are some modifications from the original one):

"1. Bismarck + PE steamed from Gotenhafen, via Great Belt, to Norway. Lutjens commands at Bismarck. The Squadron is sighted by the Swedish cruiser and by norwegian resistance. They alert the British. Norfolk and Suffolk go to patrol at the Straits, Hood + PoW steam to Iceland, the KGV + Repulse stay at Scapa FLow.
2. In full coordination the Tirpitz + Hipper had crossed earlier the Kiel Canal and steamed at dusk the same evening the Bismarck and PE are at the Norwegian Fiord.
3. The British air raid find the fiord empty the following morning. Home Fleet began to deploy.
4. Tirpitz + Hipper follow Bismarck + PE some sixty to eighty miles behind: close enough to bring support in case of need but far enough for, in case of being detected, made the enemy thought theere are a sole Squadron.
5. Norfolk and Suffolk sighted Bismarck + PE. At dawn the following day Hood + PoW intercept. As in History: Hood is blown but this time PoW gives a hard fight. In addtidion to the already known hits PoW strikes Bismarck at the Anton turret, blowing it and damaging a Fire Control Dome and the funnel. The Bismarck lists heavy to port and fights several fires. But the PoW 4 gun aft turret jammed. The Bismarck puts her hit at the PoW´s bridge while PE is bussy trying to find a firing solution to spit a couple of torpedoes at her. The Norfolk and Suffolk are ordered to engage to save the British capital ship. And then Suffolk blows sky high as Tirpitz, coming out of the midst and from a "dead" radar coverage, engages. The Hipper runs behind the Norfolk. PE finally gets a firing solution and the PoW stops cold and began to list. The Bismarck gives the PoW´s crew chance to abandon her. Finally the British crew scuttles the doomed ship.
6. Lutjens is aware that Bismarck has heavy damage so he transfer flag to Tirpitz. The Bismarck steams north, via Denmarck Straits, back home. Nobody is going to follow her. The Tirpitz (without damage), the PE (lightly damaged) and the Hipper steam south, southeast without the cruisers shadowing.
7. KGV + Repulse + Victorious scrambles from Scapa FLow. The Rodney is ordered to break convoy escort and join. H-Force is ordered to get out Gibraltar and cover the French waters.
8. In the middle of the night the Ark Royal is suddenly attacked: Schanhorst had left French port the previous evening and had intercept Force H. When it is going to finish the Carrier the Renown gets into the fight and overwhelming the Schanhorst. The German unit finally sinks in a huge explosion. Ark Royal transfer it´s crew to Renown just in time before the CV sinks.
9. Renown re-joins the hunt for the Tirpitz after Ark Royal crew is safe aboard Shefield and a couple of destroyers.
10. Tirpitz + 2 cruisers are sighted by a Catalina. The British change their course in order to intercept. The Swordfish planes of Victorious attack the Germans. This time, with AA support of three ships, the British attack failed completely and some of the aircraft are shot down.
11. The German Squadron is intercepted, finally by the KGV + Rodney + a couple of cruisers. Renown is too far away to matter. "


Now, it´s up to them:

Germans: One BB + two heavy cruisers
British: Two BB + two light cruisers

But now the German BB is not damaged and is just not doing 7 knots: it´s fully operational and doing 29 knots. Will the Germans disengage and turn, being able to do that because Rodney is too slow? If they do that KGV + cruiser will pursuit leaving Rodney behind butr risking a combat without numerical superiority?

Best regards...
But now the German BB is not damaged and is just not doing 7 knots: it´s fully operational and doing 29 knots. Will the Germans disengage and turn, being able to do that because Rodney is too slow? If they do that KGV + cruiser will pursuit leaving Rodney behind butr risking a combat without numerical superiority?

I would think so, KGv is more than capable of inflicting serious damage to the German ship at any range, whilst the German cruisers might take part, they will have to deal with the British cruiser as well. I could not envisage a British Admiral refusing to engage and letting the German ships sail off to do untold damage to the convoys. Should the remaining German Battleship be damaged and slowed, Rodney wil be in a good position to make contact and finish the job even if KGv is out of the fight . As for the two German cruisers, they would almost certainly defeat the lone British cruiser, but at what cost to themselves? If they get close enough to KGv to use torpedoes they still risk damage from her secondary armament and, having taken hits from the British cruiser as well these could prove fatal.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by paul mercer »

David89 wrote:
RF wrote:Fleet action being in the Pacific - well, yes but of course there was an Axis fleet in the Med. It could of course have escaped into the Atlantic and joined the KM surface ships. Now how about an Axis force of Bismarck, Tirpitz, Vittorio Veneto and Littorio loose in the north Atlantic, with a neutral USA?

So how about these four ships versus Hood, POW, KGV, Repulse as nothing else would really be fast enough to keep up, except perhaps Renown. If we add Renown we could then add Scharnhorst and Gneisenau, and Karl you now have your own WW2 Battle of Jutland, in the wide open spaces of the Atlantic.
There is no "of course" about the Italians ability to escape from the Mediterranean. If they try to go via Gibralter then they will run into Renown, Nelson, and Ark Royal and there is no chance of their being able to either slip past or avoid severe damage in a fight with these ships. Renown and Nelson aren't really a match for Vittorio Veneto and Littorio, but Ark Royal is more than enough to tip the balance considering how weak the Italian ships AA is and since the Pugalise system of underwater protection is so ineffective a couple of torpedo hits should be enough to cripple either Italian ship. Now if the Italians try to slip out via the Suez Canal, which isn't really practical anyway, they will run into Queen Elizabeth, Warspite, Valiant, and Barham based at Alexandria. This isn't a fight the Italians have any chance of winning and even if they did by some miracle win, they will be wrecks with little or no fighting ability, not to mention the long journey to meet up with the German ships in the Atlantic.
"Renown and Nelson aren't really a match for Vittorio Veneto and Littorio",
I'm not so sure, given the known fighting qualities of both sides!
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by David89 »

paul mercer wrote:"Renown and Nelson aren't really a match for Vittorio Veneto and Littorio",
I'm not so sure, given the known fighting qualities of both sides!
Nelson should be at least a match for either Italian ship, but Renown is very weak, with no IZ to the Italian 15"/50 gun. However the British 15"/42 has very good deck penetration, and given the accuracy that Renown showed on every engagement of her career, with or without radar, plus the recency of the Italian ships commisioning, Renown's target might well sustain serious damage before getting a return hit.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

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I'm not so sure, given the known fighting qualities of both sides!
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by RF »

In Karl's scenario would Tirpitz, Hipper and PE need to engage KGV, let alone Rodney? Surely if engagement is not necessary, because convoys are the targets, the German Fleet Commander would take avoiding action.

If either KGV or Rodney was convoy escort, then that would be a different matter entirely.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Legend »

I rather like the idea of the Kriegsmarine holding Rhinebung off for a few months, to wait for 2 modern battleships instead of one. I rather like the idea of the Kriegsmarine and Luftwaffe working together too, but what's the chances of that :wink: (about a 0.25-0.5 % chance :lol: )
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Legend:

In regard to your position about waiting a little bit and have two Bismarck Class BB instead of one: that´s right! It has been my hypothetical point since long ago. And regardless of the common anti Bismarck enviroment around here I´m quite sure that a Bismarck + Tirpitz unit would be by FAR larger than the sum of their parts. If "just" one Bismarck + PE did ignite such a conmotion into the RN which movilized everything to stop them, what could be expected by the two BB + (maybe) 2 heavy cruisers? Even if we wait some months then there will be longer nights, Schanhorst will be ready to sail (which it could do if the British went ape when the other units broke thru Denmarck Straits or Faroes or wherever, quite a distraction), etc. etc. It goes farther than if the thick of the turret´s face armour is of that or so width in comparison of that of another vessel.

The British (talking about 1941) would have more or less the same resources than in May but the menace of Japan being each time bigger. For that time, also, the specter of Rommel in North Africa would be already a myth, so there is little much hope that there will be extra resources in order to confront a German menace much more of the double it´s original magnitude.

In regard of Luftwaffe, forget it: Goering hate the KM and disliked Raeder.

Best regards.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

RF:

Well, maybe (just maybe) if we have an hypothetical scenario with two Bismarck Class BBs then Raeder could have another idea. Maybe, whilst he was dreaming with his Z Plan to avenge Scapa Flow, he was visited by the Angel of Evil Strategic Inspiration and:

1. Fired Lutjens
2. Put a "fighting" Admiral in front of the unit
3. Change his idea and create havoc in the Atlantic
4. Understanding that creating havoc is more than attacking convoys, but if the oportunity arises, then found enemy capital ships and lure them into combat under unfavourable circumstances (which means, techinically, under Schneider´s crosshairs).
5. Giving absolute decision making to the commanding admiral despite the original orders

... well, that really sound pretty. Raeder wasn´t that bright. Nimitz was.

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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Bgile »

They would have had to wait until early 1942, correct? Does that imply significant US resources? I'm not sure it does ... just asking. Obviously a very dangerous force.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Legend »

I agree, maybe put Marschall in command... He proved himself in WW2 with the Twins. If Group 1, Bismarck and Prinz went about their buisness the way it actually went, exept for a few months later... The scenario causes the British to think the Germans are leaving the Lonely Queen to stay behind and harass convoys to Russia. Then Group 2, Tirpitz along with Scharnhorst then do a reverse channel dash a week or two later, and fly into the Atlantic with destroyer cover. That means when the British evidently figure out Group 2 is 3/4 the way down their coast, their navy is in chaos... they have everyone going after Bismarck while Tirpiz and her vicious little cousin are home free. At this point they have two decisions; one, continue going after Bismarck and sink her, or two, split their forces and let both get away with little damage to them and Hood and PoW sunk, along with the BB or two they send after Group 2. Now, lets say they do catch Bismarck nevertheless. They meet off Brest, Bismarck is wounded (her rudders destroyed) and either still in the water or running in circles. When the KGV closes in with Rodney, out of a squall to northwest comes Tirpitz, guns blazing. Then they notice Scharnhorst charging in from the northeast, and (I think she was in Brest at the time?) Gniesenau and Admiral Hipper come from the southeast. And not to be forgotten, Prinz Eugen boring in from the west, coming to defend her big (brother...?) Aunt! One big family reunion out to avenge their ancestors in WW1 :lol: . I think the six of them would be enough to take out KGV, Rodney, and Ark Royal. Once the fray starts the British do have a little advantage though. they do have a carrier. When they let their Swordfish out it would be hell for the Germans. By the end of it, one of the Kriegsmarine ships will be sunk and the rest damaged to varying degrees, but the Royal Navy ships will be eliminated. Now, the genius Hitler would see that as a defeat, with one down and the rest damaged, but in the long run in reality it would have been a good thing ,with the Kriegsamrine in the Atlantic, blocking nearly everything us Americans sent over, to both Europe and Russia.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Bgile;

I was thinking Fall 1941, in reality (forget Raeder´s dreams). To have a good oportunity in 1942 it has to be January-Febuary, let´s say the latest is March. Then the US might would make it´s presence feel and that´s not that good... Well, uhmmm... maybe... :think: what do you think of this:

Bismarck, Tirpitz plus PE and Hipper trying to break loose out of Denmarck Straits and...

North Carolina and KGV are waiting (PoW is already sunk with Repulse, so neither of them could be there) there with two aditional cruisers. It´s a fair fight! It´s not likely that Hood would be there, it´s possible that she would be:

1. Sunk by a U-Boat or by the blowing of one of it´s own boilers
2. In the Mediterranean escorting convoys to Malta

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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Bgile »

I think it's a really tough fight and could go either way, depending on luck to a great degree.

The problem for the Germans is if they win, one or more of their BBs is probably heavily damaged and slowed. Here comes the carrier. The allied side can afford to lose both BBs and still come out ahead in the long run.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Karl Heidenreich »

Bgile,

I´m sure that the larger tactical picture (operational level) and, of course, the strategic one would favour the allies, no doubt. You cannot win over such numerical superiority. One, or both, of the German vessels could be lost in the exercise.

But, this initial battle is interesting, because we have surface units vs. surface units, clasical style, and in a big degree, at daylight. Very interesting.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by RF »

In this scenario the Germans have to take avoiding action, particulary with the presence of a US battleship, and no convoy in the vicinity to justify attack. I also think that Hood would be included in the Allied force as two German battleships in tandem would rquire an Allied response of at least their strength.
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Re: Tirpitz accompanies Bismarck in Operation Rheinubung

Post by Bgile »

RF,

I think the Allies would consider two BBs and two CAs to be approximately equal to two German BBs and two CAs.
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