Graf Spee comes out

Historical what if discussions, hypothetical operations, battleship vs. battleship engagements, design your own warship, etc.
paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Graf Spee comes out

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
I have looked back at the 'Hypothetical' section of our Forum, and while there are scenarios about AGS V Cumberland one on one, I could not find any reference to what might happen if AGS had decided to come out and fight. I imagine it would probably been a fairly close range encounter due the the narrowness of the channel until it widened out into the open sea and that AGS would probably concentrate her fire on the Cumberland being the more powerful ship. I also wonder how much ammunition AGS, Ajax and Achilles had left after their earlier engagement, Cumberland of course would have a full complement of 8* shells.
Would AGS have sunk Cumberland and put the other two out of action or would the weight of fire from all three destroy her?
Thorsten Wahl
Senior Member
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

Recommended battle distance 19 -25 km.
Own target angle 30-40 degrees.
Decisive effect of own weapons possible.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
paul.mercer
Senior Member
Posts: 1224
Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2010 10:25 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by paul.mercer »

Hi Thorsten,
Thanks for your reply, but to which side are you referring?
Thorsten Wahl
Senior Member
Posts: 919
Joined: Mon Apr 27, 2009 4:17 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by Thorsten Wahl »

For Admiral Graf Spee
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
kevin32422
Member
Posts: 41
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2012 3:25 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by kevin32422 »

From what I have read Graf Spee was not quite seaworthy (Still had unrepaired Damage) and was low on ammo it might been able to force its was out but what happens from there with potentially more damage is anyone's guess
HMSVF
Senior Member
Posts: 347
Joined: Sun Jun 17, 2018 10:15 am

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by HMSVF »

Isnt AGS stuffed either way?

HMS Cumberland becomes hors d combat or worse. AGS is still off Montevideo, may well have taken some more damage and fired off a load more ammunition.

Not that dissimilar to what her namesake ended up in.

Once you've been cornered/identified/exposed its pretty much game over for a surface commerce raider? Certainly one as prestigious as AGS.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by RF »

The problem for AGS was that Cumberland was a genuine county class cruiser compared to the Exeter.

I think AGS would have had trouble shooting it out with Cumberland. The AGS rate of main armament fire was too slow, only two salvoes per minute. On that basis, unless AGS lands a devastating hit on Cumberland very early on the Germans are in trouble.
Another important factor was the total ineffectiveness of the 5.9 inch guns, which means Ajax and Achilles would have free target practice on AGS without coming under any serious fire.

AGS was low on ammunition and not completely seaworthy, in itself meaning that a quick despatch of Cumberland - quicker than Bismarck sank Hood - was the Germans only chance of success.

What would have been more interesting - in the realms of fantasy - is teleport a replacement for AGS to Montevideo. Say the Scharnhorst, that would completely tip the balance....

Logically I think the only option for AGS is either a run up the Parana within territorial limits to a more friendly country, say to Asuncion or alternatively to hug the Argentine coast to Bahia Blanca.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by Steve Crandell »

Not sure where you got the 2 rds/min rate of fire for AGS, but in any case that's likely going to be determined by time of flight and spot correction for both ships.

Anyway it's one cruiser vs three, so not looking good for AGS.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by RF »

The source for 2 rounds per minute was Rasenack's book on the AGS, this is for the rate of fire at the RP battle where there were spotting difficulties, given the twists and turns AGS was making and the effects of her own smoke.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
Steve Crandell
Senior Member
Posts: 954
Joined: Wed Feb 05, 2014 7:05 pm

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by Steve Crandell »

RF wrote: Fri Nov 12, 2021 8:33 am The source for 2 rounds per minute was Rasenack's book on the AGS, this is for the rate of fire at the RP battle where there were spotting difficulties, given the twists and turns AGS was making and the effects of her own smoke.
Bismarck's rate of fire at Denmark Strait was one round per minute over the entire engagement. We know she fired much faster than that at times. Do we know Exeter's rate of fire for that battle?

Again, my point is that rate of fire over an engagement is determined more by other things than mechanical rate of fire, so that of Cumberland might not be any greater than that of AGS. That depends on range of course ... Cumberland's becomes faster as the range comes down.
User avatar
RF
Senior Member
Posts: 7760
Joined: Wed Sep 20, 2006 1:15 pm
Location: Wolverhampton, ENGLAND

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by RF »

I don't know about Exeter's rate of fire, but given the two factors of (1) how long it took between AGS opening fire at near full range and Exeter getting into range and (2) the short time elapse before Exeter's forward turrets were knocked out by direct hits, would suggest a pretty rapid rate of fire given the two 8 inch hits on AGS which Rasenack identified as the main contributors to the seaworthiness damage to his ship.

I've no idea about the quality of Cumberland's gunnery as far as I know this ship never fired its main armament in battle against an enemy ship. But it had a full complement of eight guns against Exeter's six and I would expect Cumberland to be as good as Exeter in its shooting.
''Give me a Ping and one Ping only'' - Sean Connery.
User avatar
hans zurbriggen
Senior Member
Posts: 421
Joined: Sat Dec 21, 2019 8:15 am

Re: Graf Spee comes out

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello all,
while I agree with Mr. Crandell about practical RoF (especially at long range), it's a matter of battle geometry whether Cumberland can bring to bear all 8 guns: in a stern chase AGS can fire 3 11" guns vs 4 8" of Cumberland or Exeter (and can engage other cruisers with the bow turret, if they try to cut her course).
AGS did not fire well during RP battle, despite radar, not taking advantage from her longer range, opening fire at 17 km only, when Exeter guns were already within range (however, 7 hits were achieved on Exeter vs 3 only, despite splitting armament against different targets): any County cruiser was at awful risk against 11" guns at any range. Exeter was quite lucky not being blown up as Hood. AGS was not immune to 8" tough, therefore high risk was on both sides. Schlachtschiffe were projected however as heavy cruiser killers: not many chances for Cumberland at long range in a 121 confrontation (that is not the case here).

Main problem for AGS was ammunition (very low), and where she might have gone after further battle damages.

hans
Post Reply