Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

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HMSVF
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by HMSVF »

Late to the party!


My two penneth!

Yamato was designed to fight against the US and RN navies. The US treaty vessels (+ Colorado's) were 16 inch gun equipped so I'm assuming that she was protected at the very least against that caliber. She also, as pointed out was equipped with the largest (modern) guns ever taken to sea with a shell weight that was well beyond anything anybody else had. The next contender would be the 2700lb super heavies carried by the Iowa's.
The whole rationale behind the class was to be bigger and better - with an expectation that they may well be outnumbered.


So if she can hit you (and were not the Japanese trained to fight at long range??) its going to hurt.


That said.


You have two well designed, tough ships (but not designed against 18.1 inch shell fire) with 16 good enough guns against 9 monsters. Bismarck was to show that it didn't really matter if she was a bugger to sink if she was effectively wrecked where it mattered, i.e her armament, fire control, command and control etc. You just end up with a waterlogged hulk of scrap.


Soooo

If the two German ships can get enough hits in, that cause degradation to Yamato's fighting ability quickly enough and before she can slap down one of them, then yeah. I suppose they would have a chance if they can take out her fire control, they pepper her softer ends, riddle her superstructure, cause fire and flooding.

Vice versa, If Yamato manages one good salvo on one of them, good enough to say cut one of the two's speed, or take out a couple of turrets ,then I would give Yamato the upper hand.


She really was a monster. The only class I would say were her equal were the cancelled "Montana" class. That's not to say that an Iowa couldn't have done well against her with her big 16 inchers.



I'd just want to be wearing my luck Maori pendant and battle dress if I were on Iowa.


Best wishes


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RF
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:36 am
Let us not forget that Bismarck was shot to bits at close range (admittedly by a combination of 14 &16" shells), but it was the 16" from Rodney that seemed to do most of the damage so imagine what 9 x18" are going to do to Tirpitz at close range!
The comment about the relative effectiveness of Rodney's shells needs to be seen in the context of KGV having more firing problems with the quad 14 inch turrets so on 27 May 1941 I would have expected Rodney's fire to be key. Don't forget that Bismarck's gunnery control was KO'd by an 8 inch shell from Norfolk.

I do think that a Bismarck/Tirpitz combination against Yamato has a similarity to the Battle of the River Plate in that Yamato would perform much in the way AGS did.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by RF »

HMSVF wrote: Fri Dec 24, 2021 1:25 pm
Vice versa, If Yamato manages one good salvo on one of them, good enough to say cut one of the two's speed, or take out a couple of turrets ,then I would give Yamato the upper hand.


HMSVF
I think it would be interesting if we add either Prinz Eugen to the Bismarcks or a couple of Narvik class destroyers - this gives the German fleet commander a torpedo option as well as the 15 inch guns. Prinz Eugen would have the ability to use Yamato as target practice for the 8 inch guns, staying out of range of the Yamato's 6.1 inch secondary armament while Yamato has to concentrate fire on one of the Bismarcks.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by Steve Crandell »

Yes, well ... why not an entire fleet? That seems to be the way you are going. Want to give the Japanese some DDs and a cruiser or two?
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by paul.mercer »

RF wrote: Fri Jul 29, 2022 8:06 am
paul.mercer wrote: Wed Dec 15, 2021 10:36 am
Let us not forget that Bismarck was shot to bits at close range (admittedly by a combination of 14 &16" shells), but it was the 16" from Rodney that seemed to do most of the damage so imagine what 9 x18" are going to do to Tirpitz at close range!
The comment about the relative effectiveness of Rodney's shells needs to be seen in the context of KGV having more firing problems with the quad 14 inch turrets so on 27 May 1941 I would have expected Rodney's fire to be key. Don't forget that Bismarck's gunnery control was KO'd by an 8 inch shell from Norfolk.

I do think that a Bismarck/Tirpitz combination against Yamato has a similarity to the Battle of the River Plate in that Yamato would perform much in the way AGS did.
Hi RF,
I suppose we are taking into consideration that all three were fully worked up with experience crews (when Yamato was sunk she apparently hasda bit of a 'scratch' crew on board)
As for a battle between Bismarck & Tirpitz v Yamato, of course anything could happen if a 15" shell took out Yamato's fire control, but to disable her by wrecking the upperworks would be relying on her take a large amount of hits in order to degrade her capability to carry on the fight. One of Rodneys fairly light 16"shells apparently took out one of Bismarck';s fore turrets and temporarily disabled the other (a lucky -or unlucky hit perhaps depending on whose side one is on!) )so what an 18" from Yamato would do doesn't bear thinking about. I realize both German ships were well armoured, against 15 and 16" shells but probably not against very heavy 18" shells. I would predict that both the German ships would probably be either sunk or so heavily damaged they would have to retire, while Yamato's upperworks would be so hammered that she would have to return to Japan for repairs, but I doubt if her main armour would have been penetrated.
PS, I am probably wrong, but I thought it was Scharnhorst who had her gunnery radar KO'd by Norfolk?
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by RF »

I believe that it was in the North Cape battle, rendering the Scharnhorst almost blind in the foul weather conditions just after her escorting destroyers had been sent off to search for the target convoy.

Bismarck had its gunnery control position in the foretop taken out by an 8 inch shell from Norfolk, probably killing the gunnery officer Schneider just after he had straddled Rodney with Bismarck's third salvo.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 1:15 pm
I suppose we are taking into consideration that all three were fully worked up with experience crews (when Yamato was sunk she apparently hasda bit of a 'scratch' crew on board)
Yamato as I understand was on a suicide mission, a sacrifice, and as with suicide missions the crew involved were considered expendable as the more experienced crew would not be ''thrown away'' on such missions. This was certainly the case with their naval aviators.

Obviously we have a different scenario here as in reality the three ships were on the same side in WW2.

For this engagement I would have expected the best crew available for the job, in Yamato's proper role as a combat battleship.
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by paul.mercer »

RF wrote: Tue Aug 02, 2022 6:02 pm I believe that it was in the North Cape battle, rendering the Scharnhorst almost blind in the foul weather conditions just after her escorting destroyers had been sent off to search for the target convoy.

Bismarck had its gunnery control position in the foretop taken out by an 8 inch shell from Norfolk, probably killing the gunnery officer Schneider just after he had straddled Rodney with Bismarck's third salvo.
Thanks RF,
I stand corrected!
What a coincidence though, Norfolk taking out the gunnery control on two German capital ships,was she considered a 'lucky'ship I wonder?
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Re: Bismarck and Tirpitz vs Yamato

Post by RF »

paul.mercer wrote: Wed Aug 03, 2022 6:48 pm
What a coincidence though, Norfolk taking out the gunnery control on two German capital ships,was she considered a 'lucky'ship I wonder?
In the case of Scharnhorst it was the gunnery radar that was smashed. The central fire control position functioned right to the end as the three main turrets continued partial salvo fire until direct hits on the turrets from DOY silenced them.

Lucky ship indeed. Norfolk survived WW2, on the day of the unconditional German surrender one of the new elecktroboots had her in its periscope sights in an ideal torpedo firing position. Only Doenitz's order to cease hostilities halted the attack, neither Norfolk or her destroyer escorts were even aware of the sub's presence.
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