North Cape

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paul.mercer
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North Cape

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Just having a re-read of Scharnhorst's last battle when she originally met up against Norfolk, Belfast and Sheffield and turned away almost straight into the Duke of York guns. I did wonder what might have happened if DoY was not there or late arriving on the scene and Scharnhorst's captain had decided to make a fight of it against the 3 Cruisers, would the combined fire of 2 six inch and 1 eight inch cruiser been enough to make her turn away or possibly sink her (if they were able to use their torpedoes) bearing in mind the sea conditions at the time or would Scharnhorst just sink or severely damage all of them?
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marcelo_malara
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Re: North Cape

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paul.mercer wrote: Wed Mar 01, 2023 10:20 am Gentlemen,
Just having a re-read of Scharnhorst's last battle when she originally met up against Norfolk, Belfast and Sheffield and turned away almost straight into the Duke of York guns. I did wonder what might have happened if DoY was not there or late arriving on the scene and Scharnhorst's captain had decided to make a fight of it against the 3 Cruisers, would the combined fire of 2 six inch and 1 eight inch cruiser been enough to make her turn away or possibly sink her (if they were able to use their torpedoes) bearing in mind the sea conditions at the time or would Scharnhorst just sink or severely damage all of them?
Scharnhorst would quickly dispose of the cruisers. Anyway, the man was not up to the task, remember Erich Bey is the one that did not try to make the run out of Narvik.

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Fatboy Coxy
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Re: North Cape

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

Well I'm certainly no expert, but lets put a little flesh on the bone and give it a go.

Putting aside whether Bey had the stomach for the fight, or was looking to avoid unnecessary damage, this battle might have played out like the Battle of the River Plate.

If the battle had played out on the first contact, when Bey thought he'd met a battleship, Scharnhorst had quickly lost her radar, and they were fighting in a snow storm. The Germans were firing at muzzle flashes, and the British cruisers might have overcame her, spreading out,

At about noon, Bey revisited the convoy, and possibly the weather had improved, or the little light there was favoured the Germans, certainly their gunnery improved, and if they did enjoy such an advantage, then the cruisers would have a much harder time.

The third scenario is when Scharnhorst turns south chased by the trio, now there in little light, if any, and indeed if there was, it could only help the British who are in the north. Historically, Belfast was some distance ahead of Norfolk and Sheffield, and Bey might have caught her out with a quick turn, but unlikely, as Belfast was tracking her on her radar. Both Norfolk and Sheffield had struggled with problems engine problems, trying to keep a high speed in these heavy seas, and unless/until Scharnhorst's speed is reduced by battle damaged, she can always turn and run from any enveloping attack.

To my mind, the cruisers can only win if Bey choses to stay and fight, which in my mind serves no purpose, unless he's confident the convoy is just behind them, which might give him the incentive to go for it. With the convoy in danger, all of Burnett's ships will go down defending her. At this point of desperation they might just pull it off and win. So in scenario one, the cruisers win, in two Bey wins, because I suspect he had some advantage and scenario three, there'd be no fight.

I'm not saying the cruisers would have sunk her easily, and indeed at least one of them might have been sunk, but because they were fighting at shorter distances, they could have inflicted appreciable damage, enabling one to get close enough for torpedoes.

And now I'm going to sit back and learn! :D
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marcelo_malara
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Re: North Cape

Post by marcelo_malara »

Fatboy Coxy wrote: Fri Mar 03, 2023 4:23 pm Well I'm certainly no expert, but lets put a little flesh on the bone and give it a go.

Putting aside whether Bey had the stomach for the fight, or was looking to avoid unnecessary damage, this battle might have played out like the Battle of the River Plate.

If the battle had played out on the first contact, when Bey thought he'd met a battleship, Scharnhorst had quickly lost her radar, and they were fighting in a snow storm. The Germans were firing at muzzle flashes, and the British cruisers might have overcame her, spreading out,

At about noon, Bey revisited the convoy, and possibly the weather had improved, or the little light there was favoured the Germans, certainly their gunnery improved, and if they did enjoy such an advantage, then the cruisers would have a much harder time.

The third scenario is when Scharnhorst turns south chased by the trio, now there in little light, if any, and indeed if there was, it could only help the British who are in the north. Historically, Belfast was some distance ahead of Norfolk and Sheffield, and Bey might have caught her out with a quick turn, but unlikely, as Belfast was tracking her on her radar. Both Norfolk and Sheffield had struggled with problems engine problems, trying to keep a high speed in these heavy seas, and unless/until Scharnhorst's speed is reduced by battle damaged, she can always turn and run from any enveloping attack.

To my mind, the cruisers can only win if Bey choses to stay and fight, which in my mind serves no purpose, unless he's confident the convoy is just behind them, which might give him the incentive to go for it. With the convoy in danger, all of Burnett's ships will go down defending her. At this point of desperation they might just pull it off and win. So in scenario one, the cruisers win, in two Bey wins, because I suspect he had some advantage and scenario three, there'd be no fight.

I'm not saying the cruisers would have sunk her easily, and indeed at least one of them might have been sunk, but because they were fighting at shorter distances, they could have inflicted appreciable damage, enabling one to get close enough for torpedoes.

And now I'm going to sit back and learn! :D
Ok, I have been a little harsh with Bey in this case (but I sustain that his actions in Narvik were below standard).

First of all let me analyze the concept of the whole operation. Decimating a convoy needs multiple attack vectors, as Doenitz knew very well when he proposed the wolf pack as a counter to convoy. If you attack a convoy with a single warship the merchants will simply disperse, and the attacker will be able to catch only a few of them before the rest are beyond reach. So in this case the weapon of choice should have been the five destroyers. Should Scharnhorst have sailed with them? Only to protect the destroyers from interference in the slaughter, not as the main anti convoy weapon.

Second, what should Bey have done when he met the British cruisers? He should know from Bismarck´s experience that running away from radar equipped cruisers was out of the question. In my opinion, as his should have been a destroyer protecting mission and the destroyer´s foes were just on sight, he should have fought the cruisers to their ends, allowing the destroyers to decimate the convoy unmolested.

Now came the fatidic moment where Scharnhorst lost her radar, and then all this plans went wrong.


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paul.mercer
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Re: North Cape

Post by paul.mercer »

Gentlemen,
Just a point about Scharnhorst firing at the gun flash's maybe wrong on this but didn't Norfolk get hit because she was not using the flash less cordite like the other two 6" cruisers?
Actually, as a major afterthought on the subject of the three cruisers taking on Scharnhorst on their own, I suppose that if we go back to the battle with Graf Spey (which in my opinion she could and should have won) we have a similar scenario except they are coming up against what is pretty well a full size armed and armoured battleship with 9 instead of 6x11" guns and unless they could ger almost suicidally close in order to use their torpedoes in that rough sea they would not be able to seriously damage Scharnhorst.
Even so, had Scharnhorst turned and made it home it would still have posed a serious problem for the RN with both her and Tirpitz acting as a dangerous threat of a 'fleet in being' to the convoys.
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Re: North Cape

Post by Fatboy Coxy »

I think the big difference to consider between this battle and the River Plate, is about the conditions they fought under. Firstly it was very poor light at best, and Scharnhorst lost her search radar very quickly. So the three cruisers can 'see' her better than she can see then. Secondly, how accurate can you be, the British have radar fire control for their guns, the Germans using optics, and thirdly the sea conditions, when your rolling and pitching, your aim is going to be somewhat poorer, which suggests to me that the effective fighting distance is much shorter, allowing the 8-inch and even 6-inch guns to be more effective against the Scharnhorst.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: North Cape

Post by marcelo_malara »

paul.mercer wrote: Mon Mar 06, 2023 10:23 am Gentlemen,
Just a point about Scharnhorst firing at the gun flash's maybe wrong on this but didn't Norfolk get hit because she was not using the flash less cordite like the other two 6" cruisers?
Actually, as a major afterthought on the subject of the three cruisers taking on Scharnhorst on their own, I suppose that if we go back to the battle with Graf Spey (which in my opinion she could and should have won) we have a similar scenario except they are coming up against what is pretty well a full size armed and armoured battleship with 9 instead of 6x11" guns and unless they could ger almost suicidally close in order to use their torpedoes in that rough sea they would not be able to seriously damage Scharnhorst.
Even so, had Scharnhorst turned and made it home it would still have posed a serious problem for the RN with both her and Tirpitz acting as a dangerous threat of a 'fleet in being' to the convoys.
There is one big difference between River Plate & North Cape: the distance from home port. Graf Spee was half world away, Scharnhorst 100 miles (or so). Langsdorff had no ammo to finish the cruisers, having spent almost 50%, and it would be difficult to replenish. Moreover repairing any damage was out of the question. Scharnhorst could have used 900 rounds.

The torpedoes, Scharnhorst would be a difficult target, in fact any manouvering ship is. But...remember Scharnhorst receive one from Ardent & Acasta during the sinking of Glorious, so it is a remote possibility, but has to be taken into account.
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Re: North Cape

Post by paul.mercer »

Thanks for that Marcelo.
I agree there is no real comparison with the Graf Spey battle but it would have been an interesting confrontation, I suppose the combined fire of 24 x 6" and 8 x 8" shells would have made a bit of a mess of Scharnhorst's upperworks, but I can't see them doing enough damage to seriously hurt let alone sink her (unless they can get her with torpedoes) whereas her 11" shells can seriously hurt the cruisers - as happened to HMS Exeter.
I think it was just as well that DoY was there to back them up!
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Re: North Cape

Post by marcelo_malara »

paul.mercer wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:10 am Thanks for that Marcelo.
I agree there is no real comparison with the Graf Spey battle but it would have been an interesting confrontation, I suppose the combined fire of 24 x 6" and 8 x 8" shells would have made a bit of a mess of Scharnhorst's upperworks, but I can't see them doing enough damage to seriously hurt let alone sink her (unless they can get her with torpedoes) whereas her 11" shells can seriously hurt the cruisers - as happened to HMS Exeter.
I think it was just as well that DoY was there to back them up!
Yes Paul, but don´t assume that the 11" was the ray of God. It took seven impacts in Exeter to put her on the run, and at a hit rate of between 2 and 5% that means that you would need to fire about 150 shells to take down each cruiser. The numbers are with Scharnhorst, but that does not mean it would be easy.
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Re: North Cape

Post by AirForceBrat »

You also have to remember that Hitler gave very little freedom to the navy. Because of the loss of the Bismarck and the Graf Spee, they had orders to avoid naval engagements with warships. They even had restrictions on getting damage of any sort. If I’m not mistaken didn’t the Scharnhorst have the same 11 inch guns as the Graf Spee and remember how mush damage the Graf Spee received at the River Platte. On the side note, the last time I was in London I went aboard the Belfast. She is moored not far from the Tower of London, but on the opposite bank of the Thames.
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marcelo_malara
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Re: North Cape

Post by marcelo_malara »

AirForceBrat wrote: Tue Mar 28, 2023 3:19 pm You also have to remember that Hitler gave very little freedom to the navy. Because of the loss of the Bismarck and the Graf Spee, they had orders to avoid naval engagements with warships. They even had restrictions on getting damage of any sort. If I’m not mistaken didn’t the Scharnhorst have the same 11 inch guns as the Graf Spee and remember how mush damage the Graf Spee received at the River Platte. On the side note, the last time I was in London I went aboard the Belfast. She is moored not far from the Tower of London, but on the opposite bank of the Thames.
Hi! The 11" were different.

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-545_skc34.php

http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNGER_11-52_skc28.php

Scharnhorst was better protected, I wouldn´t expect the same damage of Spee´s if DoY didn´t appear in the scene. Agree with the rest.
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Re: North Cape

Post by paul.mercer »

marcelo_malara wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 3:24 pm
paul.mercer wrote: Mon Mar 13, 2023 10:10 am Thanks for that Marcelo.
I agree there is no real comparison with the Graf Spey battle but it would have been an interesting confrontation, I suppose the combined fire of 24 x 6" and 8 x 8" shells would have made a bit of a mess of Scharnhorst's upperworks, but I can't see them doing enough damage to seriously hurt let alone sink her (unless they can get her with torpedoes) whereas her 11" shells can seriously hurt the cr
Yes Paul, but don´t assume that the 11" was the ray of God. It took seven impacts in Exeter to put her on the run, and at a hit rate of between 2 and 5% that means that you would need to fire about 150 shells to take down each cruiser. The numbers are with Scharnhorst, but that does not mean it would be easy.

Thanks Marcelo,
You are correct of course re the 11" gun, the shell weight for a 'pocket battleship' was 300kg but for the twins it was 330kg. However, I suppose it all depend where the cruisers get hit, I would have thought that even the 8" would be unable to penetrate Scharnhorst's armour and into a magazine whereas her 11" would probably do so on any of the cruisers.
Just a thought, it doesn't bear thinking about what the 24 x 15" fire from three QE class battleships did to the Italian cruisers at Matapan!
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Re: North Cape

Post by paul.mercer »

double post!
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