British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Armed conflicts in the history of humanity from the ancient times to the 20th Century.
OpanaPointer
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British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by OpanaPointer »

I digitized some British documents covering their adventures in the 'Stan back in the 1800s. Fascinating reading for those interested in deep background. https://www.history.navy.mil/content/hi ... 78-80.html
paul.mercer
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by paul.mercer »

Thanks for that, not one of our more successful ventures, I think we lost about 16000 men in 1842.
Afghanistan seems to be one of those counties which is almost impossible for a foreign invasion to succeed, I believe we tried again in the 1880s when we were armed with the then modern breech loading Martini Henry and once more in 1919 with even more modern magazine rifles and machine guns.
The Russians didn't fare too well either!
The last 20 year escapade by NATO forces was, in my humble opinion, always ultimately doomed to an eventual failure, waging a war against people fighting guerrilla warfare on home ground was always going to be a no win situation in the end. There was a very good article in one of the mainstream papers on Sunday where the author stated that we cannot and should not, try and force our western values on another country by the barrel of a gun. How true.
OpanaPointer
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by OpanaPointer »

After digitizing those books it really bothered me that with such sterling examples we still sent our guys into that area.
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Kev D »

A book I can also highly reccomend about the 1839 British invasion of Afghanistan and subsequent disaster is ''Return of a King: The Battle for Afghanistan' by William Dalrymple.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Kev D »

OpanaPointer wrote: Mon Aug 30, 2021 1:30 pm After digitizing those books it really bothered me that with such sterling examples we still sent our guys into that area.
Especially so with regards the Brits, in that 'they' sent them back in to the very area the Brits were most hated and had a history of defeat. What did 'they' think, that tne Pashtun tribesmen whose forebears not just fought but, and I mean no offense here, humiliated the Brits in the 1800's were going to welcome them back with open arms? Go figure. The words "military intelligence" has become more and more an oxymoron.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Steve Crandell
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Steve Crandell »

We all seem doomed to repeat the mistakes of the past, time and time again.
Byron Angel
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Byron Angel »

Look at the bright side, gentlemen. Over the twenty years in question, Afghan opium production grew by 2500 (yes - 2,500) percent. The only question remaining to be answered is who exactly benefited from the bonanza.

B
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

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Byron Angel wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:58 pm Look at the bright side, gentlemen. Over the twenty years in question, Afghan opium production grew by 2500 (yes - 2,500) percent. The only question remaining to be answered is who exactly benefited from the bonanza.
B
One thing is for sure, it certainly wasn't the farmer, nor the addict!

As for who did, well where to start.........corrept Afghan officials, the T'ban, international drug smuggling syndicates and corrupt 'officials' and local drug dealers in the countries it ended up in as herion.

Unfortunatley it was, earleir in the piece, a Catch 22 situation, erradicate the fields = push the grower into the T'ban fignting force (as many /most grew poppy simply as their only form of livelyhood, as oppsed to being T'ban sympathises); leave it in the field and put money into T'ban coffers to support their ensurgency. A loose loose situation all round for ISAF.

Still, what a fiasco that there is soooooooo much more poppy being grown now than 20 years ago. Go figure! :stubborn:
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Byron Angel
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Byron Angel »

Kev D wrote: Thu Sep 23, 2021 6:25 am
Byron Angel wrote: Wed Sep 22, 2021 10:58 pm Look at the bright side, gentlemen. Over the twenty years in question, Afghan opium production grew by 2500 (yes - 2,500) percent. The only question remaining to be answered is who exactly benefited from the bonanza.
B
One thing is for sure, it certainly wasn't the farmer, nor the addict!

As for who did, well where to start.........corrept Afghan officials, the T'ban, international drug smuggling syndicates and corrupt 'officials' and local drug dealers in the countries it ended up in as herion.

Unfortunatley it was, earleir in the piece, a Catch 22 situation, erradicate the fields = push the grower into the T'ban fignting force (as many /most grew poppy simply as their only form of livelyhood, as oppsed to being T'ban sympathises); leave it in the field and put money into T'ban coffers to support their ensurgency. A loose loose situation all round for ISAF.

Still, what a fiasco that there is soooooooo much more poppy being grown now than 20 years ago. Go figure! :stubborn:

The Taliban have stated their intention to eradicate opium cultivation in Afghanistan. We'll see how that goes.
Meanwhile, on the topic of who benefited from the Afghan drug trade over the past twenty years ..... does anyone remember the Vietnam era scandal involving Air America (the CIA's private "airline") and the Burmese drug lord Khun Sa, who controlled the opium trade out of the "Golden Triangle"?

My catch phrase nowadays - "Nothing is on the Level".

B
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Kev D »

Byron Angel wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:11 am [
The Taliban have stated their intention to eradicate opium cultivation in Afghanistan. We'll see how that goes.
Yeah, we will certainly see how that goes. Not holding my breath, but we can always live in hope.
Byron Angel wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:11 am Meanwhile, on the topic of who benefited from the Afghan drug trade over the past twenty years ..... does anyone remember the Vietnam era scandal involving Air America (the CIA's private "airline") and the Burmese drug lord Khun Sa, who controlled the opium trade out of the "Golden Triangle"?
Yes, have read several books on the subject. A very detailed one on the whole corrupt mess back then that I can reccomend is "The Politics of Heroin in South East Asia", by Alfred McCoy, first published 1972. (And of course the book that the rather funny / laughable film (with Mel Gibson and Robert Downey) was very, and I repeat very loosley based on, "Air America".) And while I am at it, and while it is more about FACs (Forward Air Contollers) and their 'balls to the wall' missions while operating illegally in Laos and working at times with Air America (rather than transporting dope for them) and all the time operating clandestinely / illegally - as officially "we" werent in Laos - it also has parts on helping the Laotian 'good guys" protect their opium, and is called "The Ravens" by Christopher Robbins. A very good book all round, especially on the FAC missions, though!

Now back to Afg. While I dont think the Afg poppy situation benifitted the US government, save maybe tactically as in 'wining friends' by turning a blind eye, Karzai and Ghani and their respective clans sure got rich off it.
Byron Angel wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 1:11 amMy catch phrase nowadays - "Nothing is on the Level
Nowadays? Nothing has been 'on the level' for a very very long time!
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Byron Angel
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Byron Angel »

Hi Kev,
I have a LOT of books on the Vietnam War, but not "The Ravens". I'm going to scope it out on Amazon. Thanks.
Meanwhile, we should all say a prayer and light a candle for the country and our families.

B
Byron Angel
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Byron Angel »

Kev D wrote: Fri Oct 01, 2021 7:42 am Yes, have read several books on the subject. A very detailed one on the whole corrupt mess back then that I can reccomend is "The Politics of Heroin in South East Asia", by Alfred McCoy, first published 1972. (And of course the book that the rather funny / laughable film (with Mel Gibson and Robert Downey) was very, and I repeat very loosley based on, "Air America".) And while I am at it, and while it is more about FACs (Forward Air Contollers) and their 'balls to the wall' missions while operating illegally in Laos and working at times with Air America (rather than transporting dope for them) and all the time operating clandestinely / illegally - as officially "we" werent in Laos - it also has parts on helping the Laotian 'good guys" protect their opium, and is called "The Ravens" by Christopher Robbins. A very good book all round, especially on the FAC missions, though!

Just bought "The Ravens". A 4.5 star Amazon rating on 547 reviews (including more than a few "I was there too" reviews) confirms your praise of the book. Thanks.

Interesting story re Hmong tribesmen, who were mentioned in a number of the Amazon reviews I read. Back in the late 70s, my best friend's wife was involved in sponsoring re-settlement of a group of Hmong evacuees in Boston MA. They ended up in the Allston-Brighton section, a bit of a tough Irish-Catholic neighborhood with the obligatory contingent of young wise-asses. The way she told the story, she was in her office one afternoon when her sponsorship supervisor called in a panic and said they had to go visit the Hmong families RIGHT AWAY. It seems that said local neighborhood wise-asses had been giving a lot of grief to the older Hmong grannies on the streets. The men of the clan had met to decide what to do about "resolving" the problem and decided to take a couple of heads and plant them on various fire hydrants around the neighborhood as a warning.

Linda and her supervisor explained that this approach might be frowned upon by the local authorities and suggested that they would personally intervene with the Boston police about the matter. Apparently the cops collared these neighborhood kids and explained what hard-ass guys these Hmong were in real life and the nature of the bullet they had dodged. No more street hassles.

True story.

Byron
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Kev D »

No problemo Byron. And yes, your story of the Hmongs - or the 'little people' as they were affectionately known to their US 'advisors' back in 'the Nam - planning to put a few severed heads around the Boston neighborhood doesn't surprise me one bit, as I am sure they did think of doing it, and were definately capable of doing it.

It certainly worked in 'scaring' their NVA adversaries back in the day. As you no doubt know, many of the clandestine / illegal - but rightfully conducted IMO - 'across the fence' missions into Loas from Vietnam 'runnin recon' were comprised of small teams (usually about eight to ten men, even more if it was a 'heavy team', with US soldiers 'in the lead' - usually two to four of them) and expat Hmongs living in the Vietnam highlands making up the bulk of the teams. They were considered (by their American partners) as highly courageous and very reliable / faithful, and extremely good fighters, with a penchant for the odd NVA / Cong severed head if they could get away with it. :shock: :wink: But it probably would not have gone over very well with the people of Boston / the police. :negative:

Anyway, I am sure you will enjoy that Ravens book, I found it hard to put down.
Byron Angel wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:46 amHi Kev,I have a LOT of books on the Vietnam War
Me too, might have to swap notes / start another thread (or offline) on those type of books - as I had a library overflowing with same also, most that I have now given to my son - on that other 'clusterf%#k' called the Vietnam War.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Byron Angel
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Byron Angel »

Kev D wrote: Mon Oct 04, 2021 9:01 am
Byron Angel wrote: Sun Oct 03, 2021 12:46 amHi Kev,I have a LOT of books on the Vietnam War
Me too, might have to swap notes / start another thread (or offline) on those type of books - as I had a library overflowing with same also, most that I have now given to my son - on that other 'clusterf%#k' called the Vietnam War.
Hi Kev,
IIRC, the first book I ever bought on the topic was "The 13th Parallel" by John del Vecchio in the early 80s. It was nominally a novel, but del Vecchio had served in VN; reading that book, I discovered the term "the green square" and its meaning from that book and it ever after helped to guide my efforts in understanding the war. Prior to that time, the only information available was coming from the government and broadcast media - which as we have come to discover was (and remains) about 97 percent bullshit.

I also accumulated US military manuals (weapon systems, organizational, tactical, operational guides) that friends of mine were throwing away after being RIF'ed out of the Army. Later came various official US postwar analyses - the stuff on the air war I would describe as "enlightening".

The next step in the addiction was my collecting the wave of paperback 'first-person' reminiscences by returning servicemen that flooded the book stores later in the 80s. Not necessarily perfect references to rely upon for a doctoral dissertation, but a far sight more informative in terms of getting a grasp of the tactical realities from the grunt's perspective. I still have them - about 70 different titles. Then came the wave of officer-written works in the 90s, along with the first series of works by legitimate historians (with absolutely due respect to Bernard Fall, who led the way three decades earlier).

The officer-written books (post retirement, I'm guessing) are still popping up. One very good one I recently picked up is "Abandoned in Hell; The Fight for Vietnam's Firebase Kate" by William Albracht and Marvin Wolf - both retired US Army captains. Albracht was the Green Beret officer who defended Firebase Kate with a platoon of GIs and a company of Montagnards (<200 men in all) . It's a detaied and painfully honest book. Same reception as "The Ravens" on Amazon - 4.5 stars on 500+ reviews. FWIW.

Dunno exact count - maybe 200 book in all.

Byron
Kev D
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Re: British in Afghanistan, 1800s.

Post by Kev D »

Thanks Byron. I'll look into that book. Last one on VN I finished was a couple of months ago called "19 Minutes To Live" by Lew Jennings, a Little Bird (or Loach as I think they called em back then) and then Cobra pilot. Or was it they other way around. A VERY good in your face book. Another 4.5 star from 1000 plus reviewers.

And I of course should have added in my above "[.......... and expat Hmongs living in the Vietnam highlands, and the local 'Yards, making up the bulk of the teams."
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
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