Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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pasoleati
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati »

Steve Smith posted the following on Steelnavy Board on July 24 in a thread discussing the forthcoming AotS Scharnhorst by the same Draminski:"Your view of them is better than mine but you express the problem. AOTS has become a 3D rendering series.

3D renderings are great for illustrating concepts but they suck as an alternative to photographs. For something the scale of a battleship it would take a lifetime to do fully accurate 3D model. The renderings-in-place-of-photos are inherently inaccurate because some details (that would show up in photos) are omitted.

In the case of the AOTS Iowa, the internal renderings are frequently wrong in key details. They show decks where no decks exists. Climb down the ladder from the second deck to the aviation fuel tanks and you find there is no deck; just walkways attached to the framing. Go into the uptake spaces in the superstructure and there are no decks. But AOTS shows decks there. They show intake trunks where no such trunks exist. They omit the hull castings and replace them with framing. Repeat ad nauseum. These may look cool in 3d but they are wrong.

Much of the 3D is pointless. The deck plans in 3D show nothing. I can't tell anything about the vertical arrangement of the decks from the them. I'm not sure if this is because of they way the renderings are oriented or because the underlying model is wrong.

I've seen other renderings in which you can see the vertical arrangement of the deck.

The odd thing is that the 3D brings out many of the errors. If you look at the BGP for the Iowa class ships and take a look at the hold level at the bow. It shows lines in the deck. If climb down there on the ships, you find these lines are outlines of the keel plating. AOTS converts these into bulkheads. Thus, if they had just copied the BGP and left it in 2D there would be no error. The errors show up making things in 3D incorrectly.

Similarly, if you go down to turret one at the powder flat, the powder passing ring does not go all the way around because the turret support bends inward to account for the narrowness of the hull. In the other turrets you can walk all the way around.

The 3D in AOTS does not show this. Yet the would be the very type of detail that does not show up well in 2D but could be illustrated in 3D.
(I think someone posted a computer generated image on ModelWarships.com showing this feature.)"

So, Stefan Draminski's statements claiming that the limitations of space were the reason for the shortcomings listed are very wrong. It must be asked that did Draminski actually visit the actual ship to verify his drawings?
Kev D
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D »

Hey paseolati, better hurry on over to SteelNavy where they are working up a new thread re the Schanhorst / Draminski AOTS book so you can get the latest to continue grinding your axe against his work.

I wonder how many of his books you actually own, as opposed to just parroting the opinion of others though?
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
pasoleati
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by pasoleati »

Kev D, I have actually had Draminski's AotS Bismarck and I was so disappointed that I quickly sold it. So I am not "parroting", I am simply basin my doubts about Draminski's work on his previous work. His Bismarck book lacks the key features of what an "anatomy" should be.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello, I don't have the Iowa AoS.
I have Mr.Draminski's Bismarck AoS book (and waiting for Scharnhorst one): while I agree it's more an aspect and internal anatomy (layout) book then a true technical text, I consider it a very good book, mostly for Bismarck aspect in different periods of her life.
My question: is there available (in English) any good technical book on Bismarck (I mean hull construction, armor (plates), engines detailed layout, turbines, boilers, guns, turret, fire direction, radar, fire fighting plant, pumps, boats, catapult, etc.) ?
I think not (I am not aware of any). Is there on Iowas ?

hans
bigjimslade
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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"My question: is there available (in English) any good technical book on Bismarck (I mean hull construction, armor (plates), engines detailed layout, turbines, boilers, guns, turret, fire direction, radar, fire fighting plant, pumps, boats, catapult, etc.) ? Is there on Iowas ?""

In the case of the Iowa's the answer is no. The best available is Sumrall's book. Unfortunately, there is more breadth than depth and the book is not that large.

It is also shocking how much bad information there is out there on the Iowa's, especially considering that they are available for inspection. One example, is that nearly every source says the belt armor is 1.62" at the bottom. It is not. Sources tend to be highly inconsistent in regards to backing plates. I have yet to see a source that consistently reports armor thicknesses either including or excluding those plate.

Another issue the hull form. Every kit on the market has royally screwed this up. Many publications have included hull lines and sections for the Iowa-class but none has apparently done so with great precision. Key features I have not seen in a published set of such lines is the two knuckles at the stern and the tangency line at the bow. Someone may have published such lines but with the resolution too low to see those details. Some hull forms and published lines do not even take into account the half siding that runs bow to stern.

One hindrance is that the original plans have disappeared for BB-34 through BB-66. They were stored in a warehouse in Memphis TN that closed in the early 2000's no one appears to know what happened to them after that. They may have just been destroyed. There is a in incomplete collection on the USS New Jersey that I am still in the process of sorting. However, these are all copies and are often difficult to read. The plans were microfilmed, but the person who did it was apparently high on crack at the time.

I wish that there were good sources that showed the actual mechanic of how the guns on the various battleships were loaded. I've been able to explore and photograph nearly ever corner of the turrets in the Iowa class so that I could learn the details. But I would love to know the same for some other battleships for comparison.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.bigjimslade, same applies for Bismarck, with outdated technical books or recent generic repetitions.
I think Mr.Draminski book is by far the best available today for Bismarck layout and aspect.

hans
Kev D
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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hans zurbriggen wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:32 am Hello Mr.bigjimslade, same applies for Bismarck, with outdated technical books or recent generic repetitions.
I think Mr.Draminski book is by far the best available today for Bismarck layout and aspect.hans
Hans be careful now, as you will raise the ire of herr paseolati, as his opinion - although, by his own admission having actual had in his hands on only one of his books - is that anything Mr Draminksi publishes is dogdirt. :negative:
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
bigjimslade
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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A new stash of original Iowa-class plans was discovered this month that is on its way to destruction. Hopefully the forces of goodness will be able to be able to remove them before the incinerator.
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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Kev D wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 8:54 am Hans be careful now, as you will raise the ire of herr paseolati, as his opinion - although, by his own admission having actual had in his hands on only one of his books - is that anything Mr Draminksi publishes is dogdirt. :negative:
My cats hate almost everything Draminski. The covers of the Iowa and Bismarck book have been destroyed because felis catus keeps reaching into the bookshelf and sending them crashing to the floor. And it's only those two that they don't like. The Yamato book stays in place and all the other books stay in place.

Felines just don't like AOTS:Iowa and AOTS:Bismarck.
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hans zurbriggen
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by hans zurbriggen »

Hello Mr.bigjimslade, usually cats are instinctively right, but which technical book on Bismarck does they like ? Jack Brower's AOTS is even less technical and mostly incorrect about ship's aspect. Koop-Schmolke is a must, but it is too generic, by now much outdated and not free of errors. You already admitted there is none for Iowas.

hans
Kev D
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

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bigjimslade wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:54 pmMy cats hate almost everything Draminski.
Hopefully in the not too distant future that will not be the case. I have a back-burner project going with him, no not a book, and if we can persevere, as I am a stickler for accuracy, we should have something to show for our labours. :dance:
bigjimslade wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:54 pmThe covers of the Iowa and Bismarck book have been destroyed because felis catus keeps reaching into the bookshelf and sending them crashing to the floor. And it's only those two that they don't like.

Hmm, you would have thought the smell of dogdirt would have kept them at bay. :D
bigjimslade wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:54 pmFelines just don't like AOTS:Iowa and AOTS:Bismarck.
Smart cats, who really likes BB's anyway. :clap:
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
bigjimslade
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by bigjimslade »

Kev D wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 9:41 am
bigjimslade wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 6:54 pmFelines just don't like AOTS:Iowa and AOTS:Bismarck.
Smart cats, who really likes BB's anyway. :clap:
But they leave AOTS:Yamato alone.
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by Kev D »

bigjimslade wrote: Mon Feb 01, 2021 3:32 pmBut they leave AOTS:Yamato alone.
Like I said, smart cats, after all who wouldn't be afraid of a Yamato! :shock: The others were simply puny by comparison. :D
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
SteveSmith
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Re: Anatomy of the Ship Iowa/Stefan Draminski

Post by SteveSmith »

Kev D wrote: Wed Apr 08, 2020 4:54 pm First, I am very familiar with (some of the) AOTS books. So I agree, I'd expect to see mostly the interior. And I am not implying the criticism is / wasn't legitimate. But that is no reason (and I see none here so far) to be be rude / downright nasty (as some of the boys at that pit of vipers SteelNavy are at times). After all, you attract more ants with honey than vinegar. :lol:
I know this is old but I just noticed I got this mention here. I don't remember being particularly nasty in my comments on Steel Nursery. The AOTS Iowa book is a Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde affair. The 3D renderings are very good. The "anatomy" part is simply dreadful. It looks like "Super Drawing in 3D" + some anatomy stuff that is largely fiction. That's the reality. Call it "nasty" for pointing out these serious defects if you will.

Many of the issues could have been spotted on a tour of the ship. I'm sure my buddies on USS Iowa would have shown the innards if asked to do so. They say they offered the publisher assistance but were never contacted in response.

A visit to the update spaces would show they are cavernous openings that extend from main deck to 05. The intake air flows freely through these spaces to cool the uptakes. In the book, there are decks at each level and intake trunks that simply do not exist.

On p. 124 there is an illustration of Frame 160. What reference was used to create this illustration? I ask because there is no physical Frame 160 on the Iowa class. The reason there is no frame there is a key structural detail of the ship.

My criticisms were not directed towards production errors like missing doors or bulkheads that were 12 inches off. Instead, I addressed issues that reflect features shown that were pure inventions that have no basis in reality.

If Osprey will print so many gross errors about a ship that is sitting there an open to the public for inspection, what fictions might there be in their books on ships sitting at the bottom of the ocean? I am seeing more and more evidence that this may be a lot.
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