imaginary encounter
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imaginary encounter
Among the possible encounters between. US. battleships and KM Bismarck, one of the more likely and interesting would have been with Idaho and Mississippi, both of which were assigned to the neutrality patrol and were based in Iceland, although their arrival would have to be moved up several months. Any encounter would have been. accidental, as the US was still neutral, and of course Bismarck, much faster, could easily have avoid action. Could one of them have been. mistaken for a queen Elizabeth class ship in the northern murk? though neither Idaho nor Mississippi seem to have had radar at the time, they were heavily armed, and well-protected. Both. had received at least 2 inches of additional deck armor from the cancelled Lexington-class ships to supplement the original 3.5 inch deck.
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Re: imaginary encounter
Side protection of the american ships could be pierced to distances >25 km.
The reverse appears as not possible.
Its therfor likely that these american ships are inferior based on the weapons and protection.
Dispersion of the german gun as well as ROF appears as superior.
Bismarck could choose battledistance at will and dictate conditions of engagement.
The reverse appears as not possible.
Its therfor likely that these american ships are inferior based on the weapons and protection.
Dispersion of the german gun as well as ROF appears as superior.
Bismarck could choose battledistance at will and dictate conditions of engagement.
Last edited by Thorsten Wahl on Fri Apr 07, 2023 7:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Re: imaginary encounter
Doublr
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
- hans zurbriggen
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Re: imaginary encounter
Hello,
I agree with all Mr. Wahl statements.
I would add that even at extreme ranges (just over 25km), Bismarck guns were able to penetrate US battelships deck: 2" added over 3.5" are not providing 5.5" protection but just (using square root rule) a mere 4".
I strongly doubt (I don't have any precise AoF data for 14"/L50 gun ) that US BB's shells could penetrate Bismarck decapping and main deck under 28-30 km (they would even burst before impacting main armor deck, after having been started by weather armor deck).
Thanks to her better optical and radar systems, Bismarck could have theoretically avoided any such encounter.
hans
I agree with all Mr. Wahl statements.
I would add that even at extreme ranges (just over 25km), Bismarck guns were able to penetrate US battelships deck: 2" added over 3.5" are not providing 5.5" protection but just (using square root rule) a mere 4".
I strongly doubt (I don't have any precise AoF data for 14"/L50 gun ) that US BB's shells could penetrate Bismarck decapping and main deck under 28-30 km (they would even burst before impacting main armor deck, after having been started by weather armor deck).
Thanks to her better optical and radar systems, Bismarck could have theoretically avoided any such encounter.
hans
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Re: imaginary encounter
Use google and look forhans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 7:43 am (I don't have any precise AoF data for 14"/L50 gun )
hans
OP1188_Abridged_Range_Tables_1944.pdf
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
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Re: imaginary encounter
Interesting that 14"/50 is considered of no consequence against Bismarck, and yet PoW seems to have done damage of consequence with fewer, less powerful guns.
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Re: imaginary encounter
There is no question; any BB gun can damage any BB at all reasonable battledistances.Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:19 pm Interesting that 14"/50 is considered of no consequence against Bismarck, and yet PoW seems to have done damage of consequence with fewer, less powerful guns.
The 14" /50 was weaker (penetrationwise) at any distance compared to the 38 cm gun and carried a explosive charge of about 1/2 of the german charge.
The sustained firing interval was >>1 min for the US gun. For the german gun near 0,5 -0,6 min at ~20 km.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
- marcelo_malara
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Re: imaginary encounter
Wasn´t the impact of PoW on Bismarck in an unprotected area?Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:19 pm Interesting that 14"/50 is considered of no consequence against Bismarck, and yet PoW seems to have done damage of consequence with fewer, less powerful guns.
Regards
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Re: imaginary encounter
Hi Marcelo,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:43 pmWasn´t the impact of PoW on Bismarck in an unprotected area?Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:19 pm Interesting that 14"/50 is considered of no consequence against Bismarck, and yet PoW seems to have done damage of consequence with fewer, less powerful guns.
Regards
I think it would be difficult to tell exactly what impact a 14" shell had on Bismarck bearing in mind she was under a deluge of fire from both 14" and 16" shells. I know we have had many discussions on the shell v armour penetration before, but I would have thought that any heavy shell from 14" and up are going to cause serious damage somewhere even if it is only taking out the radar or range finders, even a hit on the armoured parts are likely to make a bit of a mess even if they do not actually penetrate.
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Re: imaginary encounter
Fluke hits happened and will be.
Even the "worst" ship can sink a "nominally superior" ship.
Even the "worst" ship can sink a "nominally superior" ship.
Meine Herren, es kann ein siebenjähriger, es kann ein dreißigjähriger Krieg werden – und wehe dem, der zuerst die Lunte in das Pulverfaß schleudert!
- marcelo_malara
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Re: imaginary encounter
Oh, I was just thinking about Denmark Strait, when Bismarck receive a 14" hit in the fuel tanks near the bow.paul.mercer wrote: ↑Wed Apr 12, 2023 8:51 amHi Marcelo,marcelo_malara wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 4:43 pmWasn´t the impact of PoW on Bismarck in an unprotected area?Steve Crandell wrote: ↑Sat Apr 08, 2023 3:19 pm Interesting that 14"/50 is considered of no consequence against Bismarck, and yet PoW seems to have done damage of consequence with fewer, less powerful guns.
Regards
I think it would be difficult to tell exactly what impact a 14" shell had on Bismarck bearing in mind she was under a deluge of fire from both 14" and 16" shells. I know we have had many discussions on the shell v armour penetration before, but I would have thought that any heavy shell from 14" and up are going to cause serious damage somewhere even if it is only taking out the radar or range finders, even a hit on the armoured parts are likely to make a bit of a mess even if they do not actually penetrate.
- hans zurbriggen
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Re: imaginary encounter
Hello Mr. Malara,
hit you are referring to is (according to a debatable sequence) hit n.1. It hit in compartments XX and XXI (almost extreme bows), out of protected 'citadel'. It had consequences on BS mission but it was not 'very serious' in itself, because at extreme bow BS had no vital equipment (however fuel was very vital for her mission).
Hit n.2 (affecting comp. XIII and XIV) was IMHO much more dangerous: it hit in correspondence to vitals, penetrating under armor belt and decks , traversing ASW system and exploding against torpedo bulkhead. It caused ruptures in bulkhead, submerging E plant n.4 and causing water leakages also in forward left boiler room. Leakage forced to abandon this boiler room sometime after battle. It also ruptured other fuel tanks, contributing to fuel shortage.
To pass under belt (BS had a not particularly deep belt), shell could have travelled shortly underwater or could have found a way (bow wave along waterline at high speed may create areas where belt is dangerously exposed), however this kind of hit cannot be fully countered and even PoW, with her very deep belt, received a 38 cm sheel under belt, that luckily did not explode.
Hit n.2 could potentially have had more severe consequences, therefore, to answer Mr. Mercer, yes, even 14" shells could potentially seriously damage a superior ship, but we are speaking 'lucky hits' and not design immunity (that gives BS all advantages in such imaginary encounter) nor statistical odds.
hans
hit you are referring to is (according to a debatable sequence) hit n.1. It hit in compartments XX and XXI (almost extreme bows), out of protected 'citadel'. It had consequences on BS mission but it was not 'very serious' in itself, because at extreme bow BS had no vital equipment (however fuel was very vital for her mission).
Hit n.2 (affecting comp. XIII and XIV) was IMHO much more dangerous: it hit in correspondence to vitals, penetrating under armor belt and decks , traversing ASW system and exploding against torpedo bulkhead. It caused ruptures in bulkhead, submerging E plant n.4 and causing water leakages also in forward left boiler room. Leakage forced to abandon this boiler room sometime after battle. It also ruptured other fuel tanks, contributing to fuel shortage.
To pass under belt (BS had a not particularly deep belt), shell could have travelled shortly underwater or could have found a way (bow wave along waterline at high speed may create areas where belt is dangerously exposed), however this kind of hit cannot be fully countered and even PoW, with her very deep belt, received a 38 cm sheel under belt, that luckily did not explode.
Hit n.2 could potentially have had more severe consequences, therefore, to answer Mr. Mercer, yes, even 14" shells could potentially seriously damage a superior ship, but we are speaking 'lucky hits' and not design immunity (that gives BS all advantages in such imaginary encounter) nor statistical odds.
hans
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Re: imaginary encounter
Thanks Hans, didn´t remember the second one.hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:18 pm Hello Mr. Malara,
hit you are referring to is (according to a debatable sequence) hit n.1. It hit in compartments XX and XXI (almost extreme bows), out of protected 'citadel'. It had consequences on BS mission but it was not 'very serious' in itself, because at extreme bow BS had no vital equipment (however fuel was very vital for her mission).
Hit n.2 (affecting comp. XIII and XIV) was IMHO much more dangerous: it hit in correspondence to vitals, penetrating under armor belt and decks , traversing ASW system and exploding against torpedo bulkhead. It caused ruptures in bulkhead, submerging E plant n.4 and causing water leakages also in forward left boiler room. Leakage forced to abandon this boiler room sometime after battle. It also ruptured other fuel tanks, contributing to fuel shortage.
To pass under belt (BS had a not particularly deep belt), shell could have travelled shortly underwater or could have found a way (bow wave along waterline at high speed may create areas where belt is dangerously exposed), however this kind of hit cannot be fully countered and even PoW, with her very deep belt, received a 38 cm sheel under belt, that luckily did not explode.
Hit n.2 could potentially have had more severe consequences, therefore, to answer Mr. Mercer, yes, even 14" shells could potentially seriously damage a superior ship, but we are speaking 'lucky hits' and not design immunity (that gives BS all advantages in such imaginary encounter) nor statistical odds.
hans
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Re: imaginary encounter
Thank you for the comments. I have a question about the calculation of the effective thickness of armor layers, which Hans Zurbriggen suggests would only be 4 inches. However, Nathan Okun gives several formula, including simple addition for closely opposed plates (assuming no quality differences), and Tspaced = (Te1exp1.4 + Te2exp1.4 + ... + TeN1.4)exp0.71429 for more widely spaced ones. He suggests splitting the difference between the calculations, ( ~ 4.5 and ~ 5.5 in this case) giving something like 5 inches.
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Re: imaginary encounter
Hi Hans,hans zurbriggen wrote: ↑Thu Apr 13, 2023 5:18 pm Hello Mr. Malara,
hit you are referring to is (according to a debatable sequence) hit n.1. It hit in compartments XX and XXI (almost extreme bows), out of protected 'citadel'. It had consequences on BS mission but it was not 'very serious' in itself, because at extreme bow BS had no vital equipment (however fuel was very vital for her mission).
Hit n.2 (affecting comp. XIII and XIV) was IMHO much more dangerous: it hit in correspondence to vitals, penetrating under armor belt and decks , traversing ASW system and exploding against torpedo bulkhead. It caused ruptures in bulkhead, submerging E plant n.4 and causing water leakages also in forward left boiler room. Leakage forced to abandon this boiler room sometime after battle. It also ruptured other fuel tanks, contributing to fuel shortage.
To pass under belt (BS had a not particularly deep belt), shell could have travelled shortly underwater or could have found a way (bow wave along waterline at high speed may create areas where belt is dangerously exposed), however this kind of hit cannot be fully countered and even PoW, with her very deep belt, received a 38 cm sheel under belt, that luckily did not explode.
Hit n.2 could potentially have had more severe consequences, therefore, to answer Mr. Mercer, yes, even 14" shells could potentially seriously damage a superior ship, but we are speaking 'lucky hits' and not design immunity (that gives BS all advantages in such imaginary encounter) nor statistical odds.
hans
Thanks for the info, but didn't the hit on the bow go straight through without exploding, if it had exploded, then surely the consequences would have been far more serious?