Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

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Bgile
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by Bgile » Mon Jul 20, 2009 11:45 pm

I completely agree with Marcelo.

In any case, the USN made good use of the old battleships.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:21 am

marcelo_malara wrote:Sorry, but loosing a worthless machine in battle doesn´t imply that it was lost on purpose. Use they eventually had, as they were worth the repair work. I don´t either see how so big a conspiracy could go on. How did they make sure that the radar wouldn´t rise an alarm with so many contacts on screen?
I think that the Lusitania is a better case, but one that I don´t believe either. Without the sinking, it may have taken longer for the US to enter war. But the Pearl conspiracy is IMHO pure fantasy. The attack on the Philippines wouldn´t be a cause to go to war?

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The is a significant amount of circumstantial surround the events at Pearl Harbor and the US government has done itself no favours classifying and destroying documents. With regards to you question regarding the Philippines, yes obviously this would be reason enough to mount a counter attack on the Japanese, granted, but where is the punctum? Where is the outrageous crime against the American people which FDR would need to secure public opinion. This is not about having the moral high ground, and America's position here has always been questionable, its about have a reason which can be sold to there own people. Please read what I wrote in previous posts, its interesting how America on a number of occasions has needed something like this to go to war.

Personally I think whilst the US government may or may not have engineered events, I certainly think they sat back and did nothing, almost waiting for an attack, at Pearl, and no you have mentioned in the Philippines also. This suited their strategy, America wanted to be involved in World War 2 and the time was right. Put simply there is to much circumstantial evidence, including the arms race during the 1930s between America and Japan, who can have the bigger fleet or the bigger battleship. This is similar to Britain and Germany before World War One, or let me put things another way, both countries were spoiling for a fight.

Regarding old battleships, you have rightly pointed out that maybe there was still some use left in them, I'll help qualify you point by adding one of my favourite ships HMS Warspite, she had a long and useful career, I think this better explain why our wounded American's were repaired. You mentioned in your reply 'How did they make sure that the radar wouldn't rise an alarm with so many contacts on screen?' yet this is the point, by the time the Americans see hundreds of planes on a radar screen it is to late. Had the Japanese carrier group been intercepted a week earlier by a US carrier group (or any ship with a radio for that matter) then the element of surprise would have been blown. In Washington they know everything about the Japanese, the codes were broken and the Americans were listening to fleet radio traffic, even concluding that something was up. Simply there was more than enough information available to work out what the Japanese were doing, but some people hung themselves in there own bureaucratic red tape and others ignored key facts to take advantage of events, crazy this may sound, but quite plausible.

Adolf Hilter said 'The bigger the lie, the more people believe it' —this is ironic coming from Hitler's mouth, but very true, especially when talking about governments.
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Tue Jul 21, 2009 7:35 am

Bgile wrote:I completely agree with Marcelo.

In any case, the USN made good use of the old battleships.
Yes, the USN certainly made good use of their old ships, especially when compared to other navies which made poor use of their new ships. But this still does not get around the fact that aircraft carriers where what matters in the Pacific, Vice Admiral William Halsey did not want these battleship with his carrier group because they were to slow. I also think that these old ships are not worth a lot when compared to America's new battleships, Iowa, South Dakota etc.

I think what important to remember here with this conspiracy theory is it own requires certain people to suppress intelligence information and not act upon the information which was available. You don't need to find a magic bullet for this theory to work, its all very plausible, especially when you look at the war effort which followed in its greater context. America did very well out of World War 2.
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 2:36 pm

Bgile wrote:...In any case, the USN made good use of the old battleships.
The British also put a lot of miles on their WWI BBs and the Japanese used there older BBs almost exclusivly.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Tue Jul 21, 2009 3:44 pm

Had she survived the Japanese attack on Pearl would you consider the US Arizona (or her friends) a better ship than any of the new US battleships, US Iowa or the South Dakota for example? The point I'm trying to make it despite there large loses the US were not really hurt to badly at Pearl. They were never going to loose the war against Japan because of what happened at Pearl, unless they lost a few carriers. So it is reasonable to assume the old battleships sitting in Pearl were not of great strategic importance.

That said I do agree with what iwd says, the RN did get good mileage out of their old ships, however the British grand strategy still placed the battleship highly. I'm not sure how seriously the Royal Navy took carriers until later in the war. Churchill's actions in sending POW and REP to Singapore in 1942 illustrate this point.

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Karl Heidenreich
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by Karl Heidenreich » Tue Jul 21, 2009 4:30 pm

Just for the record: I do believe that Pearl Harbor attack suit great FDR agenda. By saying this I´m not implying at all that the attack, by itself, was produced or even promoted by FDR or his goverment.

For sure it was part of FDR´s strategy to lure Japan to do something agressive against US interests but the attack, and the damage inflicted, by far excedeed anything a military mind could accept in order to get it´s target achieved. For it the USN almost lost the war in the early days of 1942. Nope.
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by lwd » Tue Jul 21, 2009 6:29 pm

Oberwarrior wrote:Had she survived the Japanese attack on Pearl would you consider the US Arizona (or her friends) a better ship than any of the new US battleships, US Iowa or the South Dakota for example? The point I'm trying to make it despite there large loses the US were not really hurt to badly at Pearl. They were never going to loose the war against Japan because of what happened at Pearl, unless they lost a few carriers. So it is reasonable to assume the old battleships sitting in Pearl were not of great strategic importance.
That they weren't as good as the new BBs is irrelevant they were still very useful ships and their crews may have been even more useful. Even the loss of the CVs wouldn't have made any signficicant difference in the final outcome.

There is certainly no reason that the US would want to loose them.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:04 pm

I agree with 90% of what Karl is saying, and I think they door is wide open for speculation on the matter since the US government has done itself no favors classifying or destroying important documents on the matter. Although I think the planes destroyed on the Pearl Harbor runways and at Japanese broad scale attack on American assets (for example the Philippines) probably did more damage and destabilized the American military's position.

As I have already mentioned America, either through chance or good planning (open point) still had the means (i.e. carriers) to win the war against Japan, and this is before we even start to take about America superior industrial capacity. Basically if the war was well conducted (which for the most part it was) America could not really loose, I find it difficult to imagine the Japanese army landing on the coast of California, this seems a stretch to far, I think it is beyond Japan's means.

I agree with what you say Karl that Pearl Harbor represented something of a public relations victory for FDR, they certainly capitalized on events. My mind is still open on the matter, probably because I don't really truth any government, but also the American government seems to have a long history of needing a tragic even to justify its war.

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marcelo_malara
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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by marcelo_malara » Tue Jul 21, 2009 8:22 pm

During the Cold War days I met an American here in Argentina, who was doing some work in a sugar plant. He told me "The best government on Earth is the Soviet Government, when they speak you know they are lying. The worst is the American Government, when they speak you don´t know when they are lying and when they are telling the truth". Funny.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by skipper » Wed Jul 22, 2009 3:04 am

Pearl Harbor was, absolutely, the event that brought America into the Second World War. Without the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States would 'NOT have opentered the Second World War. I am convinced of this. Because of Pearl Harbor, the American people, and all of the industrial might of the United States swung into full gear.
HOWEVER, "there was no conspiracy to let the Japanese sttack Hawaii." Japan pulled off the attack with excellent seamanship, radio silence, and with tactical ingenuinness.
IF the War Department was going to, knowingly, let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor it would have also let the U.S. Navy in - on - the strategy. Battleship Row would have been filled - heavily - with camoflauged anti - aircraft guns. If Every combat vessel in Pearl Harbor would have been at General - Quarters ahead of time. It would have been a "turkey shoot."
IF the War Department knew of the attack ahead of time: every airstrip in Hawaii would have been loaded with B - 27's readied to sink the Japanese fleet; once the final wave of Zero' s were shot out of the sky.
It is foolhardy to think that the U.S. government knew of the attack ahead of time for two important reasons: (1) Hawaii would have been prepared (Battleship Row, at least; would have been at General Quarters; (2) Whether the Japanese attack was to have been a success or not: "the American people would have been inferiorated enough to want to go to war. [Hence, "why not make it a turkey shoot? why risk losing battleships - and sailors?]

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:13 am

marcelo_malara wrote:During the Cold War days I met an American here in Argentina, who was doing some work in a sugar plant. He told me "The best government on Earth is the Soviet Government, when they speak you know they are lying. The worst is the American Government, when they speak you don´t know when they are lying and when they are telling the truth". Funny.

Regards
Very interesting, I like the quote! Funny

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Wed Jul 22, 2009 8:23 am

skipper wrote:Pearl Harbor was, absolutely, the event that brought America into the Second World War. Without the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States would 'NOT have opentered the Second World War. I am convinced of this. Because of Pearl Harbor, the American people, and all of the industrial might of the United States swung into full gear.
HOWEVER, "there was no conspiracy to let the Japanese sttack Hawaii." Japan pulled off the attack with excellent seamanship, radio silence, and with tactical ingenuinness.
IF the War Department was going to, knowingly, let the Japanese attack Pearl Harbor it would have also let the U.S. Navy in - on - the strategy. Battleship Row would have been filled - heavily - with camoflauged anti - aircraft guns. If Every combat vessel in Pearl Harbor would have been at General - Quarters ahead of time. It would have been a "turkey shoot."
IF the War Department knew of the attack ahead of time: every airstrip in Hawaii would have been loaded with B - 27's readied to sink the Japanese fleet; once the final wave of Zero' s were shot out of the sky.
It is foolhardy to think that the U.S. government knew of the attack ahead of time for two important reasons: (1) Hawaii would have been prepared (Battleship Row, at least; would have been at General Quarters; (2) Whether the Japanese attack was to have been a success or not: "the American people would have been inferiorated enough to want to go to war. [Hence, "why not make it a turkey shoot? why risk losing battleships - and sailors?]
As it was every airstrip in Hawaii was packed with aircraft parked wing to tail, apparently to make them easier to protect against ambush.

Yes the Japanese should be credited on their good seamanship and tactics, certainly this tricked the US Navy, understandably no radio contact equals no high frequency direction finding. However I not sure anything the Japanese Navy could do would trick the boys in Washington, they had broken the Japanese codes.

Frankly the US military had every opportunity to make the event a 'turkey shoot', so either some people were very stupid (are the US government & FDR really this stupid consider the rest of their WW2 conduct) or there is something wrong (conspiracy).

It would be very interesting to know how much the US government really knew about Japan's tactics and plans considering they had broken the code. However I think any answers to this question, pro-conspiracy or not, will elude use for sometime to come. As I have already mentioned in previous posts it has taken over 150 for some of the darker secretes regarding the American Civil War to emerge, so I don't think Pearl Harbor will be any different, beyond our mortal lives.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by lwd » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:38 pm

skipper wrote:Pearl Harbor was, absolutely, the event that brought America into the Second World War.
I'll grant that.
Without the attack on Pearl Harbor, the United States would 'NOT have opentered the Second World War. I am convinced of this.
The evidence is very strong that you are wrong in this regard. Without PH the US is almost assuredly in the war by mid 42.
Because of Pearl Harbor, the American people, and all of the industrial might of the United States swung into full gear.
The US was already well along the way to war time production when PH occured. All those BB's and CV's that appeared in 42 and 43 were already on order and in some cases under construction when PH occured.
[

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by lwd » Wed Jul 22, 2009 1:41 pm

Oberwarrior wrote: .... However I not sure anything the Japanese Navy could do would trick the boys in Washington, they had broken the Japanese codes.
They had partially broken some of the codes. The Japanese also changed one of their most important ones in late Novemeber. The intercepts are on the web if you are interested.
Frankly the US military had every opportunity to make the event a 'turkey shoot', so either some people were very stupid (are the US government & FDR really this stupid consider the rest of their WW2 conduct) or there is something wrong (conspiracy).
Your first assumption is incorrect thus what follows is off as well.
It would be very interesting to know how much the US government really knew about Japan's tactics and plans considering they had broken the code. ...
As I stated this has been published on the web.

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Re: Pearl Harbor Conspiracy Theory?

Post by dfrighini » Wed Jul 22, 2009 4:00 pm

Frankly the US military had every opportunity to make the event a 'turkey shoot', so either some people were very stupid (are the US government & FDR really this stupid consider the rest of their WW2 conduct) or there is something wrong (conspiracy).
Your first assumption is incorrect thus what follows is off as well.
My comments are in response to what skipper says. He implies that because the Americans were not well prepared for the attack on Pearl Harbor it can't be a conspiracy. What I am trying to say is just because they do not appear well prepared does not mean they don't know about the forthcoming attack, certainly from Washington's perspective.

I think it is certain there was enough information to draw the conclusion Japan was about to attack, the same with the Germans and D-day, except there they had Britain's best general Adolf Hitler working counter his own high command. Had intelligent people pieced together all the available information regarding the forthcoming attack on pearl the correct alerts could have been issued. The important question here is how that information was interpreted? If we look at things in a rather two dimensional way and draw the conclusion that if the Americans knew there was an attack coming and stood everyone on alert, and the attack on Pearl turned out differently, then were would the rest of the American strategy be?

America did not just declare war on Japan after the attack, not just limited action in the Pacific to defeat the Japanese in battle, they went all the way, with the aim of destroying the Japanese! Listen to what FDR said!

I simply can't believe that a country which was planning to enter the war at the right time, had been building up her military and which had been suffering poor diplomatic relations with japan for years would be so unprepared?

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