Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

From the Washington Naval Treaty to the end of the Second World War.
Kev D
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

On a 'lunch break' so just want to clarify an above sentence, as I am not game to try an edit again after me recent disasters.

I said "I did a drawing last night of Exeter heading 70 degrees, and with gun angle as seen here, which would still put the cruisers - if thats what she was firing at - well aft, not abeam."

What I meant to imply was that the Jap cruisers would still not only be well aft on the 70 degree couse, but would also be on an arc aft, not abeam, even if Exeter was still travelling due east @ 90° (which I believe she was, and other survivors state she was at time of fatal hit, and continued on that way till sunk). Then, as I said, there is the direction the wreck pointed, i.e. 90°, and that her rudder is aligned dead ahead, no over angle whatsoever to add to that conclusion. Anyway, back to packing for a while now. :D
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
HvKleist
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by HvKleist »

Not sure whether relevant here or not, but we might remember that EXETER's Y turret had several malfunctions in the battle, including a hung shell in the R gun towards the end, and those difficulties might have impacted the barrel elevation as well.
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

Hi Kevin, thanks for the photos. That gun does not look as being elevated too far, it seems more about 20°. Did you survey the exact heading of the wreck? In affirmative case, how was this done? Could you see the position of the rudder?

Regards
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

marcelo_malara wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:40 pm

38. The ensuing action is difficult to describe in detail with no records available. The general trend of the action was Easterly with course varying between about 070 -degrees and no degrees as alterations were made to avoid straddling or to open " A " arcs. The enemy cruisers were disposed -in pairs, one pair approximately abeam to starboard and the other on the port quarter.[/b]

I think that the description must not be taken literally. First of all seems to be a type error ("no degrees"), which I would take as 90° ie:E. If alterations needed to be done to open A arcs, that would mean that "approximately abeam to starboard" has also not to be taken as literally as 90° green, but aft of the beam,How much aft? Nobody knows for sure.
Kev D
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

marcelo_malara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:51 pm Hi Kevin, thanks for the photos. That gun does not look as being elevated too far, it seems more about 20°. Did you survey the exact heading of the wreck? In affirmative case, how was this done? Could you see the position of the rudder?Regards
Hi Macelio,

Just to be clear, the photos I posted are of the foreguns only, both at very low elevation, if any. They were more to show turret angle. Can't post rear 8" till computer system back together, as still using tablet and moving house for real today, i.e. Movers coming to actually 'move' :clap:

As for your 2nd question, yes to paraphrase / add to what I mentioned above. "Then, as I said, there is the direction the wreck pointed, i.e. 90° +/-, or basically due east, and that her rudder is aligned dead ahead, no over angle whatsoever, which to me reinforces my conclusion as to her heading when hit.".

Now as for X tuuret, which is at max or almost max elevation, the question remains;, if it was still the orginal turret mechanism that had only a 50° max elevation, that would make its last elevation approx 45° or so at least, so would that make much differnce as to where / what they were firing at (as I just cant quite accept they were being used for air bursts against planes, as no Jap planes attacked her, only 'spoted' fall of shot from a healthy distance). One thing (at laest) the forward turret anlges show, IMO, is that Exeter considered the biggest threat at time of demise as coming from the southern group.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Kev D
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

marcelo_malara wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 5:32 pm
marcelo_malara wrote: Thu Oct 14, 2021 7:40 pm 38. The ensuing action is difficult to describe in detail with no records available. The general trend of the action was Easterly with course varying between about 070 -degrees and no degrees as alterations were made to avoid straddling or to open " A " arcs. The enemy cruisers were disposed -in pairs, one pair approximately abeam to starboard and the other on the port quarter.[/b]
I think that the description must not be taken literally. First of all seems to be a type error ("no degrees"), which I would take as 90° ie: If alterations needed to be done to open A arcs, that would mean that "approximately abeam to starboard" has also not to be taken as literally as 90° green, but aft of the beam,How much aft? Nobody knows for sure.
Well, Capt. Gordon says "between about 070° and no degrees, so no or 0 degrees in my opinion being east / 90° heading as per Gordons map from his book I posted earlier, and the IJN AAR's of the action (and what else I mentioned re wreck heading and zero angle on the rudder). And then there is his own map that I posted earler that shows them dead abeam at 1055. And the fatal hit did not come in till 1120.

And dont forget, that AAR of Capt. Gordons was wrtten after the war basically five years after the sinking, and comes with the previso that as no records were saved, it is to the best of his recollection, and although not mentioned, by some very brief notes he kept secreted in a toothpaste tube throughout his internment. Also dont forget that the position he gives for the sinking is 60 nautical miles away from where she actaually sank, so I dont think you can take everything in that report as 'litteral'. :negative: :D
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Bill Jurens
Moderator
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:21 am
Location: USA

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Bill Jurens »

While the final bearing of the turret may be correct, it's unlikely to be correlated with the actual geometry of the action as the ship, as it lost way and sank in what was probably a nearly stationary situation, would likely have rotated considerably from it's original path.

So far as the elevation of the rear turrets are concerned, it's very unlikely that the elevation of 70 degrees (or so) had anything to do with the range at the final action, etc. It's likely that either the turret elevation mechanisms 'failed' in the maximum elevation position, that the maximum elevation represents some sort of attempt to clear a jam or other malfunction, that the guns fell into that position during a capsize, or that the guns were elevated at the last moments in order to facilitate evacuation of the crew from below. Without full drawings and descriptions of the turrets, which I don't have at hand, it's hard to tell.

What is certain, or nearly so, is that the elevation of the after guns at 70 degrees (or so) would have had no correlation whatsoever with the range to relevant surface targets. Engaging surface targets at high elevations results in a great many difficulties and few (if any) plausible advantages.

Bill Jurens
Bill Jurens
Moderator
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:21 am
Location: USA

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Bill Jurens »

It is extremely unlikely that the bearing of the turrets as found on the wreck has much to do with the final bearing of targets during the last phases of the surface action. It is likely, almost certain, that the ship would have lost all -- or nearly all -- way just before sinking, and in such situations the hull will typically rotate to what amounts to some sort of random orientation. So the compass orientation of the ship on the bottom will likely have little to do with the orientation of the ship five or ten minutes before she actually sank, though turret orientation may -- or may not -- be somewhat related to the azimuth upon which the guns were last fired.

Bill Jurens
Kev D
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

Bill Jurens wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:46 amWhat is certain, or nearly so, is that the elevation of the after guns at 70 degrees (or so) would have had no correlation whatsoever with the range to relevant surface targets. Engaging surface targets at high elevations results in a great many difficulties and few (if any) plausible advantages.Bill Jurens
Understood Bill, so as I said above, what if it was not a turret possible of 70 degree elevation, but one with a maximum elevation of 50 degrees, that is Exeter 'as built'. Which would mean the rear guns would be elevated at about 45 or so degrees. Does that change the equation as to what surface range she might be targeting?
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
Kev D
Member
Posts: 171
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:27 am
Contact:

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Kev D »

Bill Jurens wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:50 amIt is extremely unlikely that the bearing of the turrets as found on the wreck has much to do with the final bearing of targets during the last phases of the surface action.
Hi Bill,

First and foremost, thank your very much for your input, it is much appreciated!

Re your above, given she lost all power upon the fatal hit, and turrets were stuck in train as they were prior to the hit, why would you think they would have changed after or during sinking (especially so so since they are/were all basically on the same aft azimuth on wreck)? Or am I misiunderstanding your point?

BillJurens wrote: Sat Oct 16, 2021 5:50 amIt is likely, almost certain, that the ship would have lost all -- or nearly all -- way just before sinking, and in such situations the hull will typically rotate to what amounts to some sort of random orientation. So the compass orientation of the ship on the bottom will likely have little to do with the orientation of the ship five or ten minutes before she actually sank, though turret orientation may -- or may not -- be somewhat related to the azimuth upon which the guns were last fired.Bill Jurens
I am sorry I cant post photos of her actually sinking - which also shows her foregun angles are as they are at on wreck - which I have / can be found online, as still on my tablet at present - but she went down very much on her beam ends, and very waterlogged. Also remember we are talking about depths to seabed of only 60m / 200ft, so not a lot of room to pivot. And from analyses of one of the photos of her sinking (taken from a Jap plane) with the known wind direction, it shows her still on a due easterly course, or very much thereabouts.

So as for your comment re wreck course heading not really having a bearing on her last course, I would fully agree with regards deep water wrecks, but coincidence or not - we discovered seven of the eight wrecks (HMS Jupiter had already been located by amature salvors) lost during Battle of Java Sea 1 & 2 (I dislike that '2' designation for March 1 battle but here it makes for ease of writing) - of the seven, five were found pointing within 10 degrees or usually less of the course they were on when hit and sunk (as those five sank very fast, i.e. within minutes, or at most to 10 to 15 mins max for Java). The other two, De Ruyter and Pope took some time to sink (DR 2 to 2.5 hours) so I cerainly agree that their wreck headings have no real bearing on which direction there were on when hit.
We are off to look for trouble. I expect we shall find it.” Capt. Tennant. HMS Repulse. Dec. 8 1941
A review of the situation at about 1100 was not encouraging.” Capt. Gordon, HMS Exeter. 1 March 1942
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

The two photos I found.

Image


Image
Bill Jurens
Moderator
Posts: 878
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 4:21 am
Location: USA

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by Bill Jurens »

Kev D wrote on Sat Oct 16, 2021 10:21 am. I have inserted my own replies in italics between his quotes and questions...

"First and foremost, thank your very much for your input, it is much appreciated!"

You are more than welcome...

"Re your above, given she lost all power upon the fatal hit, and turrets were stuck in train as they were prior to the hit, why would you think they would have changed after or during sinking (especially so so since they are/were all basically on the same aft azimuth on wreck)? Or am I misiunderstanding your point?"

I am not sure about misunderstandings. It's reasonably likely that unless turrets were disabled early, they were indeed trained in the direction when effective action ceased. My impression is that elevation angles may change quite a bit upon sinking, but that turret training angles do not, unless the turrets detach from the main hull during the sinking process.

"I am sorry I cant post photos of her actually sinking - which also shows her foregun angles are as they are at on wreck - which I have / can be found online, as still on my tablet at present - but she went down very much on her beam ends, and very waterlogged. Also remember we are talking about depths to seabed of only 60m / 200ft, so not a lot of room to pivot. And from analyses of one of the photos of her sinking (taken from a Jap plane) with the known wind direction, it shows her still on a due easterly course, or very much thereabouts."

Others have since posted photos taken from Japanese aircraft showing Exeter sinking. So Japanese aircraft certainly were in the vicinity, and the turret gun elevations may have been run up before sinking in anticipation of engaging these aircraft. It appears that during the final stages -- and I could be wrong here -- the range to the most threatening Japanese targets was around 18000 yards. If so, this range could have been achieved with a gun elevation of something around 13 degrees. An elevation of 50 or 70 degrees is incompatible with a surface engagement range of around 18000 yards.



"So as for your comment re wreck course heading not really having a bearing on her last course, I would fully agree with regards deep water wrecks, but coincidence or not - we discovered seven of the eight wrecks (HMS Jupiter had already been located by amature salvors) lost during Battle of Java Sea 1 & 2 (I dislike that '2' designation for March 1 battle but here it makes for ease of writing) - of the seven, five were found pointing within 10 degrees or usually less of the course they were on when hit and sunk (as those five sank very fast, i.e. within minutes, or at most to 10 to 15 mins max for Java). The other two, De Ruyter and Pope took some time to sink (DR 2 to 2.5 hours) so I cerainly agree that their wreck headings have no real bearing on which direction there were on when hit."

It's hard to tell. Many ships as they loose way not under control tend to turn broadside to the original course, so the actual compass heading when sinking occurred can be fairly problematical. The orientation on the bottom may be similar to the orientation on the surface to be sure, but it's not clear that the orientation on the surface was actually known with any high degree of accuracy. Also, the effects of torpedo hits, which would increase resistance on one side of the ship but not the other, could result in some additional turning moment. Heading on the bottom can be considered suggestive, but unless there is other evidence to support the case that the orientation on the bottom is/was similar to the course maintained during the final stages of the action is -- at least in my opinion -- somewhat problematical.

Hope this material is useful, and even interesting...

Bill Jurens
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

HvKleist wrote: Fri Oct 15, 2021 4:05 pm Not sure whether relevant here or not, but we might remember that EXETER's Y turret had several malfunctions in the battle, including a hung shell in the R gun towards the end, and those difficulties might have impacted the barrel elevation as well.
What about this? The elevation of A and B seems to conform with the range of the battle. Don´t know what means "hung shell", but couldn´t the crew have elevated the guns to max angle for example to clear the guns for some reason?
User avatar
marcelo_malara
Senior Member
Posts: 1847
Joined: Sun Oct 02, 2005 11:14 pm
Location: buenos aires

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by marcelo_malara »

About the change of heading, a ship at sea with no power is subject to the effects of waves and wind, she would tend to put herself abeam to the waves.

Regards
HvKleist
Junior Member
Posts: 14
Joined: Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:45 pm

Re: Gun range for 8' British cruiser guns?

Post by HvKleist »

"Hung shell" = Hangfire = A malfunction that causes an undesired delay in the functioning of a firing system. (US DoD)

One of the survivors of EXETER reported this in his memoirs. Y turret was also having problems with its air blast (ejection) systems that caused a build-up of cordite fumes in the turret, too.
Post Reply